The Truth about Tour vs. Retail

[XtremeCruiser]

A very good thread, Indeed.
Thanks for taking the time to contact all the OEM's

[mainuh]

I was on NiKe tour staff earlier this year and have first hand knowledge of their tour stuff,  They do make different heads for the tour,  a great example are the hosel sizes,  retail is 350,  tour has 335.  For the irons, their is no difference, and wedges are also no different, just custom grinds and shapings.  they have some true protos that are in play, the new sasquatch line has a few different models that are not available retail.  they also have a wide range of putters that will never be seen.  Nike is one company that could be hurt by saying that they actually do have different Drivers.  Every company has jumped on the bandwagon and has released "tour" versions o their clubs,  these tour clubs are ACTUALLY THE SAME AS THE "tour issued" stuff.

If a club was actually tour issued it would never be found on the internet as being BRAND NEW.  Brand new tour stuff is old stock, or junk that is being given away by the companies. 

Cool.

Why the different hosel sizes?

Actually an interesting question that can add ammo for the Tour set.
I have to think that it actually adds to the casting/forging/manufacturing process.
There has to be an additional cost since the # would be off such a limited #.
Could that be the bragging point ?... My club is a .335, not a .350 .
Not to add fuel to the fire as I think the Tour/Retail performance product is bogus, but if an OEM would go to the cost of issuing limited edition hosel, why not issue limited edition Ti ?

[Jetlv25]

I don't think there is actually an advantage to using a different titanium for the most part.  It all gives the same cor in way or another so it will ultimately perform the same.

[XtremeCruiser]

This debate has gone one for years.
Bottom line, Tour clubs are the same as the retails just customized for a tour player.
Simply put, if you spend $1000 for a tour head you left nothing on the table when you could have saved yourself a ton of money by buying a retail model and getting fit by a quality fitter vs a useless online fitting for a $1000 by a unqualified and uncertified fitter.
The differences are posted in this thread by the OEM's and guess what there are none.

[mainuh]

Kenny/Jet - I agree with both of you 100 percent.
Tour /Retail product is smoke and mirrors for the PT Barnums on the web.
My point was that hosel size differences does give snake oil credibility for the hucksters selling from their canvas wagons.

[hoot29576]

the main reason for the different hosel sizes is that most shafts come in a 335 hosel.  Most high end shafts come in the 335 tips and using shims can affect a club.  I had problems with the comps coming loose as the shim would slowly work its way up the hosel.

I am not sure if the marketing is different for 350 and 335,  maybe some shaft guys can chime in but I suspect that a larger tip diameter allows for greater flexibilty and this enables shaft manufacturers to make shafts that better fit the masses.  this is just my theory, but their is obviously something to the smaller hosels, Geekoman may be able to answer this

[BigDaddy13440]

I am not sure if the marketing is different for 350 and 335,  maybe some shaft guys can chime in but I suspect that a larger tip diameter allows for greater flexibilty and this enables shaft manufacturers to make shafts that better fit the masses. 

In theory, the larger the tip diameter, the more stable the tip of the shaft should be.

Compare trying to support a bowling ball with a straw vs a cardboard paper towel core. The straw may be able to do it, but the cross-sectional area of the cardboard core would be much more likely to withstand the strain for an extended period of time.

Obviously, I'm not a shaft manufacturer, so I don't have any clue as to the in-depth technicalities of shaft design. I do know that the strand thickness, winding angle, and tip wall diameter have a huge impact on the feel of a shaft, and the variables involved may allow a .335 diameter shaft to be more stable than a shaft of .500 inches. Of course, if the .335 and .500 shafts were identically manufacturered, there would be a HUGE difference in tip strength and feel/feedback.

Wilson's FatShafts were originally .500 diameter, wonder why they dropped down to .428"?  Maybe for more feel, without sacrificing too much structural integrity?

[Hairpie]

Hoot is correct, if you seen new tour issue equipment, mostly drivers on the internet for sale, it usually is a dumped product, If the equipment doesnt make it into the van and isnt tested by the players, its usually because the specs are way off or the face angles are not desirable. There is a very rare occasion that a touring pro will get some equipment and give it to his caddie to sell, I have done that many times, but for the most part, the guys will atleast try the stuff out to see if its the next holy grail before dumping it.  so if its wrapped in plastic and is for sale stay away

Would this include a brand new head. still in the shrink wrap with the specs all specified?...I ask because I bought one of these from a seller on the bay and absolutely love it....Did I just get lucky?...I was looking specifically for as much loft as possible and a square to open face angle and was able to find both.....I do realize that the product was "dumped" but I'm actually rather happy with it....

[rp]

the main reason for the different hosel sizes is that most shafts come in a 335 hosel.  Most high end shafts come in the 335 tips and using shims can affect a club.  I had problems with the comps coming loose as the shim would slowly work its way up the hosel.

If you had me do it, you would have never had that problem 

[mainuh]

This is copied from Tom Wishons forum -
He addresses it fairly succinctly -

Several years ago when the OEMs began to migrate more toward the larger tip diams on shafts, I asked two of my best friends in the industry who happen to be two of the very best composite engineers in the shaft business about this. Realize that back then, we all were still thinking that a 250cc driver was "pushing the size envelope", so the comments don't include that aspect as you have rightly mentioned in your post.

The three main reasons the OEMs were asking the shaft companies to develop larger tip diam shafts were

1) more tip durability for less money - the OEMs really have always been concerned about shaft breakage at the top of the hosel and hammer the heck out of the shaft companies to provide almost bulletproof shafts for this durability aspect. Making a .335 tip shaft that has a tip section which can survive a test of 5000 high heel hits at 120mph (yes there has been one company that actually specified this test) is expensive. Doing the same thing with a wood shaft tip diam at 0.350 or 0.370 costs a lot less - more margin and more durability, thus a double dream come true for the OEM.

2) as you said, the automatic increase in torsional stiffness for the shaft without having to pay more money to do it through more angle ply wraps.

3) moving to a 0.350 or 0.370 proprietary shaft in your branded line means more problems for trying to replace the shaft with something that does not have the company's brand name on the shaft. For the big OEMs it is ALL about branding and this really was a conscious reason that some of them made the change to larger tip shafts.

TOM

[SBR67]

This is copied from Tom Wishons forum -
He addresses it fairly succinctly -

[/i]

Man, that guy has to be one of the most knowledgable people in golf. Thanks for posting that.

[vsutp]

I am posting this because I am curious.  The guy on the other site claims that the new Tour Issue TM MB's are only tour if there is no serial on the 7 iron.  My set has a serial on the the 7 iron, but the set has a copper underlay underneath the finish.  I know for a fact the retail ones do not.  So my question is why TM puts serials on the new tour irons?

[geekgolfer]

I just hope some will believe the truth vs hype just to make a buck.

[dbren1]

Tour irons are generally dead on spec in terms of weight. You will not get a Tour set of irons with swingweights all over the board like you do with retail sets. This is because of the quality control at the high grade forging houses.

I've always wondered about how valid this statement is, especially when you could weight sort the retail forgings as they come out of the foundry to make sure the sets supplied to tour players are all spot on weight wise. Given the volumes you're talking about in a typical production run it wouldn't be hard to find matching sets of heads at either end of the tolerance range. You wouldn't need a different foundry.

What's also always puzzled me is that if the heads, shafts, grips, ferrules etc are all perfectly weight-sorted with very high levels of quality control, why do tour pros have leadtape on their irons.

[vsutp]

Well let me say this, every set of tour issue irons I have gotten are dead on the specs EVERYTIME.  I have never gotten a set with anything off.  As for the lead tape, some players put in on there to give the head a little more feel.  It's different strokes for different folks kinda thing.

[XtremeCruiser]

I never check anything butt the heads, yikes I now have to check the Shafts, grips, and ferrules.
My Iron reshaft project just got a lot more complicated

[hacker22]

I had a tour r7 from a player on the nationwide tour with an accra shaft.It sounded a ton different sound than the retail r7 .It was so good that i sold what a dolt i am.The new owner is not interested in selling it back 

[XtremeCruiser]

Washers added to the weights or some rat glue will get you that sound and feel.

[mainuh]

Well let me say this, every set of tour issue irons I have gotten are dead on the specs EVERYTIME.  I have never gotten a set with anything off.  As for the lead tape, some players put in on there to give the head a little more feel.  It's different strokes for different folks kinda thing.

What exactly was dead on... the lofts ?
You can get in touch with Tom Wishon and for the measly fee of @ $5.00 he will pull heads that are numbered/true to loft.
Weight, c'mon +/- 3 grams is an industry standard.
You paid for a spec'd set of clubs that any clubmaker could have put together for you and this would include a set of clubs made from Hireko components.

edit to add - did you pull the set apart to weight measure each shaft, cpm the differences in each club... Dana Upshaw will build you a set - pull any 3 clubs, cpm them and there will be incremental differances in the numbers. Were your clubs that spot on ? 
 

[vsutp]

The lofts, the lies, the weight of the heads.  I know the player I get them from and his specs are right on with mine.  All I was saying is that they are always accurate.  Whether he played with them or not.  I was not saying that it could be done by a clubmaker.  I was just making a general statment about tour irons I get.

[Jetlv25]

If you get tour irons that were actually made and assembled for a tour pro I would hope that they would be totally dead on.  Personally i think there are "tour clubs" and "made for tour clubs".  A true tour club to me is a club that is actually from the tour or a tour player.  Otherwise I have to ask myself why are these on the open market and who assembled them.  There are several areas one can mess up exact specs on the finished product even with proper head weights.

[vsutp]

That's what I mean.  The clubs I get are made for a tour player.  He gets a few sets of irons made for him at one time.  Then he tests out which ones he thinks he likes the best and gets rid of the others so he will not have any doubts in his choice.  I know there sometimes is actually a difference in tour and retail clubs and sometimes there is no difference at all.

[mr3putt]

And I am so glad when you're done with them you send them may way !!!!  Now if only I played as well with them as you did 

That's what I mean.  The clubs I get are made for a tour player.  He gets a few sets of irons made for him at one time.  Then he tests out which ones he thinks he likes the best and gets rid of the others so he will not have any doubts in his choice.  I know there sometimes is actually a difference in tour and retail clubs and sometimes there is no difference at all.

[Jetlv25]

That's what I mean.  The clubs I get are made for a tour player.  He gets a few sets of irons made for him at one time.  Then he tests out which ones he thinks he likes the best and gets rid of the others so he will not have any doubts in his choice.  I know there sometimes is actually a difference in tour and retail clubs and sometimes there is no difference at all.

Now that's a sweet deal.  What kind of stuff do you usually get?

[vsutp]

Take a peek at my what's in the bag thread.  I will try to get pics up when things calm down for me.