What Happens if Rye Preferred Something The Numbers Didn't Endorse?

[Richard Nixon]

I read this thread with great interest: http://www.golfdiscussions.com/yabbse/index.php/topic,42160.msg500521.html#msg500521 Although I'll never have the money for something like that, barring this Powerball ticket I purchased finally hitting, I kept wondering about Rye's response as a customer. Obviously, he liked what he was hearing and is preparing the necessary money. But what if hey says to Frank (or any club-fitter, as this isn't specific to Frank), "No no, I don't want grips 1/16th over...I want them smaller than standard."

Is it a conflict for a fitter to go between what a customer wants and what the numbers are telling him/her? Say, for example, that Rye fell in love with those Miuras he's posing with, but he hit a set of Nike blades far better...what happens then?

I ask this only because I know my own preferences for clubs, even though I have no idea if those preferences are particularly beneficial to me and my game. They do make me feel the most comfortable with the clubs that I've got (which has to be worth something) but they're not necessarily what the numbers would end up endorsing. Having been to Frank's, I can't imagine saying to him, "No, you're wrong, X would be much better for me," but at the same time, if he recommended I play much lighter clubs, I'd be incredibly hesitant because incredibly light clubs don't feel right in my hands. (I'll leave the heavy versus light clubs in my hands jokes to NewJericho and Rockford, who love weighing each other's clubs.)

I'm just wondering what happens when those two realities come into conflict.

[Rye]

I guess it would be different from person to person. Frank told me to change a lot of things:

- Playing the wrong type of ball, move from ProV1x to TM Penta
- Go to a heavier iron shaft, even though I have always liked a lighter shaft
- Go from a 9.5 driver to a 10.5, because I need to launch the ball higher
- Get a lighter driver shaft with a more active tip, the one I was hitting the best was a 55g Oban in stiff
- Play a thinner grip, which would make it easier for me to rotate my hands at impact and keep my natural fade under control

Now, I might not have a preference for all of those recommendation, but in the end numbers don't lie. If my scores go down, my preferences will probably change as well.

[99Luftballoons]

Good questions.

In my experience when I went to get fit for irons, I told the clubmaker-first- what type of club I like (I like a thinner profile- cant stand looking down at "fat irons"). I also told him the types of grips I generally like.
With that in mind, he was able to aptly fit me. Is it possible that another iron or grip could have made a drop of a difference? Probably, but I dont think it was enough to change what I ended up buying.

[Richard Nixon]

Now, I might not have a preference for all of those recommendation, but in the end numbers don't lie. If my scores go down, my preferences will probably change as well.

Very analytical of you. I can't believe though that you'd walk away so casually from the sticks you've got now, especially if you like (some of) them.

[Rye]

Very analytical of you. I can't believe though that you'd walk away so casually from the sticks you've got now, especially if you like (some of) them.

Well, I am not walking away from the sticks I have now as such. I have a backup set of the iron heads I play now, which I probably will have Frank build with right shafts and grips based on my fitting. The driver is another matter, but I was going to get one of drivers from the new 910 series anyway, so we are basically just talking about a new shaft.

[NewJerichoMan]

I'm just wondering what happens when those two realities come into conflict.

It is often a club fitter's role to disabuse golfers of their preconceived notions.  "I never play Callaway products."  "I only play blades."  "I've been swinging stiff flex shafts for over 20 years." 

It's a fine line though.  Sometimes, it's easier to give the customer what they want, even if it's wrong for them. 

[Richard Nixon]

It is often a club fitter's role to disabuse golfers of their preconceived notions.  "I never play Callaway products."  "I only play blades."  "I've been swinging stiff flex shafts for over 20 years." 

It's a fine line though.  Sometimes, it's easier to give the customer what they want, even if it's wrong for them. 

Any clubfitter who ignored my "No Callaways Ever!" rule wouldn't be trusted. But I can easily understand the other two criticisms. I guess I'm just wondering about the idea that is a guy's comfort with something worth undoing because the numbers say otherwise? Surely discomfort has got to potentially be worth the strokes that the better numbers replace, right?

I have to say I don't envy those who take on this particular challenge, especially as most customers can't possibly be as nice as Rye or Dr. Green.

[NewJerichoMan]

Any clubfitter who ignored my "No Callaways Ever!" rule wouldn't be trusted. But I can easily understand the other two criticisms. I guess I'm just wondering about the idea that is a guy's comfort with something worth undoing because the numbers say otherwise? Surely discomfort has got to potentially be worth the strokes that the better numbers replace, right?

I have to say I don't envy those who take on this particular challenge, especially as most customers can't possibly be as nice as Rye or Dr. Green.

That's why there are demo clubs.

[Dr.Green]

Sam,

This whole process was very interesting to watch;

I played with Søren on Saturday and granted he was exhausted from being up for 22 hours but a couple things were very noticeable with his driver:
 -When he hits it well, he crushes the ball
 - His bad shot are over the top pulls that many times are unplayable
 - He worked hard to get the clubface squared up.

The following day watching him on the monitor I saw exactly the same thing with his present driver. When Frank moved him to a slightly softer shaft the results were amazing:
  - The good shots were still good
  - The misses were now in play
  - he wasn't working as hard

Next we were off to the course and I was very interested to see if what I saw happen on the monitor would carry over to the course .........and it did!

As Søren stated, the numbers are the numbers.

[Richard Nixon]

That's why there are demo clubs.

Demo clubs to what end? You mean for customers to try? Are you saying that the numbers will always sync with what feels best/most comfortable to the player?

[Richard Nixon]

Sam,

This whole process was very interesting to watch;

I played with Søren on Saturday and granted he was exhausted from being up for 22 hours but a couple things were very noticeable with his driver:
 -When he hits it well, he crushes the ball
 - His bad shot are over the top pulls that many times are unplayable
 - He worked hard to get the clubface squared up.

The following day watching him on the monitor I saw exactly the same thing with his present driver. When Frank moved him to a slightly softer shaft the results were amazing:
  - The good shots were still good
  - The misses were now in play
  - he wasn't working as hard

Next we were off to the course and I was very interested to see if what I saw happen on the monitor would carry over to the course .........and it did!

As Søren stated, the numbers are the numbers.

Dr. Green,

I totally understand what you're talking about. What I'm asking about though is if Soren had come in, seen those numbers, and then declared, "I love my current set up. I feel completely uncomfortable with that other shaft." Or, if that seems unlikely to have happened because he was hitting the one driver so much better, suppose he didn't hit the softer version that much better. So it improved things, but only so much. I'm just wondering how Frank (or other fitters) tackle what has to be something that happens fairly regularly.

It seems to me that there might be a point where the improved numbers on the computer are outweighed by the loss of comfort from the player. Maybe not though. I've never been fitted; I'm just asking.

[nobogeys59]

Well if you go get fit and the crap ya got in the bag isn't giving you the best numbers. I guess a change is in order, cause you'd be leaving yards on the table.
So if ya are stubborn and won't change the answer is simple, don't go get fit.

[rockford35]

Well if you go get fit and the crap ya got in the bag isn't giving you the best numbers. I guess a change is in order, cause you'd be leaving yards on the table.
So if ya are stubborn and won't change the answer is simple, don't go get fit.

That's pretty much my take too. I have a friend that I play with regularily that can really mash the ball. But, he refuses to swing anything but a stiff shaft in his irons as "XS" feel strange, even tho he's way more consistent with them.

You can't argue with stupidity/stubborness, and I think fitters have better things to do with their time than deal with people coming in with their eyes shut tight.

R35

[NewJerichoMan]

Demo clubs to what end? You mean for customers to try? Are you saying that the numbers will always sync with what feels best/most comfortable to the player?

Demo clubs to take out in the real world, to see if the numbers in the cage translate to the course, to see if one can overcome preconceived notions / preferences.  


When a fitting is done properly, it's an educational process for both the golfer and the fitter.    

What I'm saying is you are not unique Sam.  I don't mean that in your freaky-deaky-facial-hair-overly-tatted-internet-ordained-priest sort of way but rather in your particular preferences when it comes to golf equipment.  Lots of golfers are persnickety when it comes to their clubs.  

A good fitter recognizes individual preferences and works to find the "best solution" that yields significantly better results while remaining in the "comfort zone" of the golfer.  There are some battles that are best never to wage.  Case in point, getting Sam W. to either shave or to try Cally equipment wouldn't be a wise battle to wage.  However, moving Sam W. toward slightly less hefty / antiquated equipment might be a worthy and winnable battle.    

[Richard Nixon]

Demo clubs to take out in the real world, to see if the numbers in the cage translate to the course, to see if one can overcome preconceived notions / preferences.  

When a fitting is done properly, it's an educational process for both the golfer and the fitter.    

What I'm saying is you are not unique Sam.  I don't mean that in your freaky-deaky-facial-hair-overly-tatted-internet-ordained-priest sort of way but rather in your particular preferences when it comes to golf equipment.  Lots of golfers are persnickety when it comes to their clubs.  

A good fitter recognizes individual preferences and works to find the "best solution" that yields significantly better results while remaining in the "comfort zone" of the golfer.  There are some battles that are best never to wage.  Case in point, getting Sam W. to either shave or to try Cally equipment wouldn't be a wise battle to wage.  However, moving Sam W. toward slightly less hefty / antiquated equipment might be a worthy and winnable battle.    

Kiss my grits: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs383.snc4/44578_833732461559_25825480_45435309_3471637_n.jpg

Thanks for the demo clarification. And yes, many golfers are persnickety about their equipment, myself included. I wasn't suggesting I was a rare bird; I was suggesting that most golfers attuned enough to the idea of getting a fitting probably are quite persnickety about their equipment.

[NewJerichoMan]

Kiss my grits: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs383.snc4/44578_833732461559_25825480_45435309_3471637_n.jpg

Someone must be gainfully employed.   

Thanks for the demo clarification. And yes, many golfers are persnickety about their equipment, myself included. I wasn't suggesting I was a rare bird; I was suggesting that most golfers attuned enough to the idea of getting a fitting probably are quite persnickety about their equipment.

Yes but most of those same golfers are very eager to get better at this goofy game, which is why they get fitted. 

[Richard Nixon]

Someone must be gainfully employed.   

Yes but most of those same golfers are very eager to get better at this goofy game, which is why they get fitted. 

I'm gainfully employed regardless of how I look. I just happened to choose this particular path for the time being, much to my boss's obvious relief.

Meanwhile, I recognize that golfers want to get better, but surely there's a mental aspect to the fitting process when a guy who already plays well (as somebody like Soren does, I think based upon what I've heard) is told that he can play even better if only certain changes are made. A clubfitter surely finds him/herself having to get through to clients that they should trust the numbers and not their guts. It's just interesting to me how that aspect of our game works, hence the conversation.

[Rye]

Kiss my grits: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs383.snc4/44578_833732461559_25825480_45435309_3471637_n.jpg

Welcome to the short hair club.

[camster8]

I read this thread with great interest: http://www.golfdiscussions.com/yabbse/index.php/topic,42160.msg500521.html#msg500521 Although I'll never have the money for something like that, barring this Powerball ticket I purchased finally hitting, I kept wondering about Rye's response as a customer. Obviously, he liked what he was hearing and is preparing the necessary money. But what if hey says to Frank (or any club-fitter, as this isn't specific to Frank), "No no, I don't want grips 1/16th over...I want them smaller than standard."

Is it a conflict for a fitter to go between what a customer wants and what the numbers are telling him/her? Say, for example, that Rye fell in love with those Miuras he's posing with, but he hit a set of Nike blades far better...what happens then?

I ask this only because I know my own preferences for clubs, even though I have no idea if those preferences are particularly beneficial to me and my game. They do make me feel the most comfortable with the clubs that I've got (which has to be worth something) but they're not necessarily what the numbers would end up endorsing. Having been to Frank's, I can't imagine saying to him, "No, you're wrong, X would be much better for me," but at the same time, if he recommended I play much lighter clubs, I'd be incredibly hesitant because incredibly light clubs don't feel right in my hands. (I'll leave the heavy versus light clubs in my hands jokes to NewJericho and Rockford, who love weighing each other's clubs.)

I'm just wondering what happens when those two realities come into conflict.

Your question is a valid one and very easy to answer.  At the end of the fitting, here's my statement to that person;

"Here is your fitting data and all of the information pertaining to it.  These are my recommendations.  In the end, I'm sure you'll do whats best for your game."

[camster8]

I'm gainfully employed regardless of how I look. I just happened to choose this particular path for the time being, much to my boss's obvious relief.

Meanwhile, I recognize that golfers want to get better, but surely there's a mental aspect to the fitting process when a guy who already plays well (as somebody like Soren does, I think based upon what I've heard) is told that he can play even better if only certain changes are made. A clubfitter surely finds him/herself having to get through to clients that they should trust the numbers and not their guts. It's just interesting to me how that aspect of our game works, hence the conversation.

Seldom do people come in for a fitting that already have the ultimate set of clubs, or so they think.  People spend thousands, trying this, trying that, buying this, buying that.  I have yet to see someone have the ideal bag of clubs who "picked" everything out themselves...

Being happy with what you own is one thing.  Being happy because you've taken the guess work out of a competent fitting is clearly another.

[Richard Nixon]

Seldom do people come in for a fitting that already have the ultimate set of clubs, or so they think.  People spend thousands, trying this, trying that, buying this, buying that.  I have yet to see someone have the ideal bag of clubs who "picked" everything out themselves...

Being happy with what you own is one thing.  Being happy because you've taken the guess work out of a competent fitting is clearly another.

Thanks for the answers Frank. These are both excellent points. As is your earlier comment about how people being allowed to judge if they want to follow the numbers or their hearts (assuming that, unlike Rye, their hearts and the numbers don't agree).

In your experience, how often do people follow the numbers?

[camster8]

Thanks for the answers Frank. These are both excellent points. As is your earlier comment about how people being allowed to judge if they want to follow the numbers or their hearts (assuming that, unlike Rye, their hearts and the numbers don't agree).

In your experience, how often do people follow the numbers?

A tough question to answer honestly, for the following reasons;

1)  The fitting cost is generally the least expensive variable, once you begin the journey.  Many people will set up a fitting appointment just to see
how they stack up with their own individual online fitting experience.  9 out of 10 times it is a disaster.  Wrong shafts, wrong heads, lie angles, lengths, etc.  Many of these folks just leave shaking their head, heading home to assess the damage.  Some come back, some do nothing, some shop E-Bay...

2)  Others come here because they have "chitz" at the Pro Shop and feel that it is worth the money to get fit properly.  At that point, I'll send the head pro the fitting results and he'll order the custom built clubs from Titleist, TM, Callaway, or whomever...

3)  Others, who were referred to me by a work associate / close friend / golfing buddy / etc. are generally here to buy from me.  Many times, that person's clubs are ready to be updated and would just as soon buy everything here.  That percentage rate is easily in excess of 90%.  Word of mouth advertising is clearly the best there is.  When they see someone benefiting from custom built clubs, they are certainly soon to follow...

In the end, all you can do is offer unparalleled service, workmanship that is second to none, be fortunate enough to have an employee who "gets it", and most importantly treat your customers like they are the only one you have...  Do that, and they'll be back, always...