Shaft pullers, including the "Silvestri" product.

[BuddhaKat]

   You wouldn't be the first.  I remember a story from a guy that had a tour van.  He bought a Steelclub to use on it. Paid cash, full price. He was having problems with consistency and ended up inventing something to improve the machine.  At a tournament where Mitchell was there, he called him over to show him what he'd done, with the intent for Ed to be able to use the upgrade to make his machine better.  Ed was furious and told the guy that if he didn't change it back he would sue him for patent infringement.  The guy modified his own machine and wasn't trying to sell the modification. He was trying to pass it on to the manufacturer.  He said he took the machine out and threw it away.

I was going to do an advertising campaign around that story.  Picture this, looking from the side of a well known mfg tour van with the back door open. A pair of arms sticking out from the back door and a Steelclub in flight toward a garbage can. The caption was going to be "The Universal Loft & Lie Bending Machine, raising the "industry standard" to new heights".  The mfg said the van will be wherever I needed it for that picture.  I was going to do another one with the same caption showing a Steelclub in a garbage can and a the tour van driving off in the background.  My attorneys threatened to have me shot if I did that right in the middle of the lawsuit.    I almost did it anyway, but my attorneys were as smart and savvy as two people could get.  I would have been a fool to not follow their counsel.

[BigLeftyinAZ]

That would have been one awesome commercial

[BuddhaKat]

It still gives me a giggle when I think about it. 

[Dr.Green]

Mike, great stories, please keep posting. 

[drewspin]

Mike, great stories, please keep posting. 

I concur!

[CDBomb]

Honestly, Mike, for my money, I'd take a Mitchell loft and lie machine over the Golfsmith and Maltby machines, hands down.

I leave your machine out of the equation altogether, because I am not familiar with it, and because it isn't a current-retail item.  If it is as ingenious as the rest of your designs, I have little doubt that it was a truly great product.

Now, having said all of that, the current tour-van-quality standard is the Green Machine, right?  But it is not a bending jig; only a measuring device, right?  What are Green Machines going for $4k?  $5k?

Again, I think that for somebody like me, who is right-handed and who only bends irons, and isn't a commercial clubmaker, the Mitchell M-1 hobbyist is a superb value.  (And again, I except your Universal design from the discussion.)

[BuddhaKat]

Oh yeah, I understand your point completely.  I'm not trying to say anything to disparage Mitchell's current products.  Back when he and I were beating each others brains out his machine shop was rather basic.  We did most everything on a computer controlled milling machine, Mitchell was using manually operated Bridgeport type mills with jigs.  Nothing wrong with that, but I still believe manufacturing tolerances are tighter with the CNC equipment.

It is my understanding that Mitchell has upgraded his machine shop to CNC equipment so there is every reason to believe his quality would have improved exponentially. I'm sure he's producing thousands of machines now and he would need automatic equipment to do that.

You are correct, the green machine is not a bending apparatus.

I can say with a great deal of certainty that when our Universal left the factory, it was the most accurate loft and lie machine made. Every bit as accurate as the Green Machine.  I was such a fanatic about accuracy that I even had the base plate ground flat. Nobody else did that.  However, the accuracy and repeatability is all dependent on the user operating the machine correctly.  We did a lot of things to make it easy to register the club head in the machine, but in the end, you still had to eyeball it in.

The Lie Gauge was the major factor in establishing a measurement.  I designed the Universal so that the gauge face could be set at 90° (vertical) for steel shafts, and could be tilted back a smidge for taperd shafts.  The entire lie gauge assembly could be raised or lowered as needed so the gauge could avoid the error that occurs when trying to measure over a step.  I thought that was kind of cool since no other machine had that capability.

But, I think you're point is correct, there's no reason to consider the Universal since it's no longer in production.  Maybe I'll be able to make a connection here with someone interested in resurrecting it.  I had a great conversation with Ari from Scratch golf yesterday, and we've agreed to keep on talking.  Nothing would please me more than to have the Universal come back to life.    Thank you for setting that up. 

Cheers,
Mike

[CDBomb]

Mike, if my modest involvement has done anything worthwhile for you and Ari, it is simply my pleasure and privilege to have done so.  I wish you all success.

I have some memories of really old Mitchell machines.  In those days, rarely did you ever see one outside the backroom of a golf shop.  As often as not, there was no one around who knew how to use them.  They'd have greasy rags hanging on them; old umbrellas leaning up against them.  Young guys in the shop had never seen anyone use one.  And you're right, there was a crudeness about them that made you think, 'a guy made this in his garage...'  That is assuredly no longer the case.

[BuddhaKat]

And you're right, there was a crudeness about them that made you think, 'a guy made this in his garage...'  That is assuredly no longer the case.

That's for sure.  But that's another way that Mitchell benefited from competition.  The looks of the Universal were very important to me. Aluminum looks bad after a couple of years if it's not anodized. Steel of course will rust.  The black finish on the Mitchell machines look fine when they're new, but that type of finish isn't a permanent barrier against rust, it only delays it.  Technically, the coating itself isn't a coating at all, it's a special kind of rust itself. But I didn't even want that so we nickel plated all of our raw steel components.  It was modestly better than the black oxide for protection, but looked really cool.  (Sizzle sells).  When you put the two machines side by side, the Universal looked like a Ferrari.

You can see the difference in Mitchell's products now.  Competition made him do better, and it shows.

Mike

[daughterscameron]

Wow, nice story and thanks for sharing...  Kinda makes me want to throw my Steel Angle Plus machine off my loading dock...

Crap Frank, I was thinkin' the SAME THING!!   I thought it was
cool that I had a Mitchell L&L in the basement.  I wanna rip that piece
of trash out of the floor and toss it!!!

BTW, thanks for the great reads, Mike!

[CDBomb]

Crap Frank, I was thinkin' the SAME THING!!   I thought it was
cool that I had a Mitchell L&L in the basement.  I wanna rip that piece
of trash out of the floor and toss it!!!

BTW, thanks for the great reads, Mike!

What, in this thread, would give you reason to think that your Mitchell was a "piece of trash"? 
It can't possibly be anything that I said; I don't think Mike said anything like that either.

[daughterscameron]

What, in this thread, would give you reason to think that your Mitchell was a "piece of trash"? 
It can't possibly be anything that I said; I don't think Mike said anything like that either.

No, no, no.  Of course I'm kidding.  BUT, I don't like anyone
who comes off as having a "God Complex".  It sure seems to me that this
ED has had one concerning the l&l machines.
I'm basically going by what I read from Mike.  I never knew this.  How could
I??  Maybe I'm more upset, reading about him strong arming the little guy.
I know you're the OP of this, and, no you didn't say anything to make me
think that.  Just a VERY interesting thread, learning about this stuff.

Now i'm just gonna go back to reading more than posting, thanks.

[BuddhaKat]

Crap Frank, I was thinkin' the SAME THING!!  I thought it was
cool that I had a Mitchell L&L in the basement.  I wanna rip that piece
of trash out of the floor and toss it!!!

BTW, thanks for the great reads, Mike!

Boy I sure don't want you to feel that way about your machine. That was never my intent.  I had the good fortune to be able to look at the strengths and weakness of a long list of loft & lie machines prior to designing the Universal.  Of all the machines I looked at, including some of the earliest one's made, I never found one that was perfect. Believe me, there were lots of things on Ed's machine that I would have loved to incorporate into mine but I had to respect his patent.

In short, don't go throwing rocks at your Steelclub. I mean, you know, it ain't as good as a Universal, but my opinion is kinda one sided on that.  

[Jetlv25]

While I wish I had a Universal, I'm at least glad I went for the true blue instead of a mitchell.

[jimbonecrusher]

Ed's attitude makes me want to toss my brand new shaft puller.  While it works well for what I do, I hate it when the big guy does this to the newcomer. 

Mike,

If you are ever able to bring the Universal back to the public, I will be in line to buy one.  Hopefully it is after one of my tours overseas, so I will have the fundage saved up.

[camster8]

Honestly, Mike, for my money, I'd take a Mitchell loft and lie machine over the Golfsmith and Maltby machines, hands down.

I leave your machine out of the equation altogether, because I am not familiar with it, and because it isn't a current-retail item.  If it is as ingenious as the rest of your designs, I have little doubt that it was a truly great product.

Now, having said all of that, the current tour-van-quality standard is the Green Machine, right?  But it is not a bending jig; only a measuring device, right?  What are Green Machines going for $4k?  $5k?

Again, I think that for somebody like me, who is right-handed and who only bends irons, and isn't a commercial clubmaker, the Mitchell M-1 hobbyist is a superb value.  (And again, I except your Universal design from the discussion.)

I have Maltby's new bending machine  http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_MA2019_A_cn_E_10026   in my shop and the Steel Angle Plus machine in my studio.  The SA Machine blows away the Maltby Machine for bending irons.  For bending Titanium metal woods, the new Maltby machine clearly out performs the Mitchell in that category...

Mike, question on your puller?  What happened on those stubborn iron heads that wouldn't separate from the shaft under the conditions of the preloaded die springs?  I have a Python puller (In my opinion the best puller out there) that works on the same concept.  BUT, once the die springs are compressed you could still actually apply pressure by continuing to pump the hydraulic jack handle?

[CDBomb]

I have Maltby's new bending machine  http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_MA2019_A_cn_E_10026   in my shop and the Steel Angle Plus machine in my studio.  The SA Machine blows away the Maltby Machine for bending irons.  For bending Titanium metal woods, the new Maltby machine clearly out performs the Mitchell in that category...

That's interesting information re: the Maltby, for bending titanium metal woods.  How long have you been using it, for bending 460cc heads?

Most people I know with Mitchells, won't even make an attempt at bending drivers, very much consistent with what you are saying.  But I had not heard about the utility of the Maltby.  I think that's actually nice to hear.  You should be the most popular guy at GolfDiscussions.  PM me for my story as to how I got banned from GolfWRX on that subject; I'm not happy or proud of it, it just happened.

[BuddhaKat]

I have Maltby's new bending machine  http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_MA2019_A_cn_E_10026   in my shop and the Steel Angle Plus machine in my studio.  The SA Machine blows away the Maltby Machine for bending irons.  For bending Titanium metal woods, the new Maltby machine clearly out performs the Mitchell in that category...

That's an interesting machine.  I wonder if they used the same method to develop the loft scale as I did.  Your point backs up what I said earlier, each machine has it's strengths and weaknesses.

Mike, question on your puller?  What happened on those stubborn iron heads that wouldn't separate from the shaft under the conditions of the preloaded die springs?  I have a Python puller (In my opinion the best puller out there) that works on the same concept.  BUT, once the die springs are compressed you could still actually apply pressure by continuing to pump the hydraulic jack handle?

A conundrum to be sure, but the fact is, sometimes clubs are shafted so badly there's no way to save the shaft.  I would occasionally here from a user that had a head stick. The hard part was designing a clamp that would have enough grip under a huge load, but still wouldn't crush the shaft.  It's going to take whatever amount of pressure it takes to get a head off, but it requires that you hold on to the shaft. The harder the push/pull is, the more clamp pressure must be applied to the shaft to keep it from slipping. If it takes more push to get the shaft out than you can clamp, there isn't a shaft extractor in the world that will work.

I put an ungodly stiff spring in our extractor.  In fact, it caused me a lot of worry.  The only way to easily cock the thing was to slip a pipe extension over the push/pull clamp.  If you lost your grip before the clamp was locked in place, the pipe would swing back hard enough to break a rib.  I was extremely specific about safety as far as that was concerned. I forget exactly what the rating was on that spring, but I think it was somewhere around 1,200 lbs.  Generally speaking, if the shaft was going to come out, the puller got it.

[camster8]

That's interesting information re: the Maltby, for bending titanium metal woods.  How long have you been using it, for bending 460cc heads?

This will be my 4th season with it and have been bending titanium metal woods with it since it first came in...

Most people I know with Mitchells, won't even make an attempt at bending drivers, very much consistent with what you are saying.  But I had not heard about the utility of the Maltby.  I think that's actually nice to hear.

Yeah, I agree.  Nice to see that others can design and make competent equipment.  Good for the economy and for the industry, knowing that no one person/s have a strangle hold or monopoly on any one piece of equipment....

You should be the most popular guy at GolfDiscussions.

Nah, far from it...  Just happy to be here as a sponsor and member...

PM me for my story as to how I got banned from GolfWRX on that subject; I'm not happy or proud of it, it just happened.

Always up for a good story ...

[camster8]

That's an interesting machine.  I wonder if they used the same method to develop the loft scale as I did.  Your point backs up what I said earlier, each machine has it's strengths and weaknesses.

A conundrum to be sure, but the fact is, sometimes clubs are shafted so badly there's no way to save the shaft.  I would occasionally here from a user that had a head stick. The hard part was designing a clamp that would have enough grip under a huge load, but still wouldn't crush the shaft.  It's going to take whatever amount of pressure it takes to get a head off, but it requires that you hold on to the shaft. The harder the push/pull is, the more clamp pressure must be applied to the shaft to keep it from slipping. If it takes more push to get the shaft out than you can clamp, there isn't a shaft extractor in the world that will work.

I put an ungodly stiff spring in our extractor.  In fact, it caused me a lot of worry.  The only way to easily cock the thing was to slip a pipe extension over the push/pull clamp.  If you lost your grip before the clamp was locked in place, the pipe would swing back hard enough to break a rib.  I was extremely specific about safety as far as that was concerned. I forget exactly what the rating was on that spring, but I think it was somewhere around 1,200 lbs.  Generally speaking, if the shaft was going to come out, the puller got it.

Ah yes, the old "persuader bar"   I have one of those here...   Thanks Mike..  Great reply...

[BuddhaKat]

Ah yes, the old "persuader bar"  I have one of those here...  Thanks Mike..  Great reply...

It wasn't a persuader bar to nudge the head off the shaft, it was for compressing the spring. It was used over the handle of the push/pull clamp.  Until you tried cocking one, it's hard to imagine how much power that spring had.  I think I might have one laying around here.  I'll see if I can get a picture if it if I have time.  Most of that stuff is gone so I'll have to do some digging.

[drewspin]

Mike, as you are doing your digging, if you happen to find a spare speed clamp, I'd love to buy one.

Cheers,
Drew

[accufitgolf]

Yeah, I'd like to hear it.  I've met Ed Mitchell, and I visited the main facility in Centerville to pick up my loft-lie machine from them many years ago.  Ed seems like a very decent guy, and an exceedingly focused engineer and businessman.  Nobody knows better than Mike, probably, what a tough, low-margin business the golf industry can be.  For everybody.
As a lawyer, I also know very well that there are two sides to every story.  I honestly never knew about the Silvestri-Mitchell dispute until glancing at some five-year-old archived message boards in the last day or two, but it doesn't really surprise me.
As long as we are on the subject of patents, lawsuits and golf shaft pullers, there is the popular-but-discontinued JB shaft puller, a modest-priced unit built around a stock-item "bottle jack."  As I understand it, the reason that the JB is gone from the market (there are one or two copies, it seems, available from other sources) is that its maker was sued for patent infringement by the makers of the Weiss-Gibson shaft puller, an extremely expensive and finely-machined unit costing hundreds of dollars.  (I wonder whatever happened to Weiss-Gibson?)  Sounds simliar to Mike's travails over the loft-lie machine dispute with Mitchell.
Anyway, to Mike Keeney I say welcome, and thank you very much indeed for sharing with us and I sure do wish your wonderful talents were being put into products I could buy!  

Ed Mitchell has a history of sueing/threatening anyone "he thinks" strays to close to his products. Understandable, but I personally think Mitchell crossed the line a few times.

I specifically refer to an old time clubmaker in the Toronto area who had a machinist buddy who looked at an old Maltby loft /lie machine (one that had no measurement feature, just bending). The machinist came up with a way to modify the machine. They were simply going to sell plans/blueprints on how to do it. Mitchell got wind of it and sent a letter threatehning legal action for what "he saw" as an issue. The clubmaker and machinist backed down.

I saw the plans and I still do not know how Mitchell thought what he did.
 

[BuddhaKat]

Yep, I know that letter only too well.  It's the one with the letterhead that takes up two thirds of the page just to list all the partners, and the letter itself is from the head honcho himself.  It would make any grown man shat his pants, but that's exactly what it's meant to do.

I don't begrudge anyone from protecting all their patent rights.  It's a right to a monopoly after all, but that's not to say that the existence of a patent should prevent the introduction of a competing product that doesn't infringe on the design. The big drawback with having a patent is that you have the sole burden of protecting it against all comers. A patent gives you the exclusive right to make, sell or license the invention for a set period of time. If someone produces a product that infringes on your patent, you have to go after them, or you lose your patent protection.  I think that's fair enough.  What I don't think is fair is when a product comes on the market and your patent attorney takes a look at it and says it doesn't infringe, and you still instruct him to send out a letter anyway.  Lawsuits are expensive and companies tend to avoid them like the plague.  Lawyers know this.  It opens up the door to getting the other guy to stop producing his legitimate product rather than face the uncertainty and expense of defending the suit.  In our case, all the pre-trial wrangling is what drove up the costs.  The trial itself was only 4 days. There is no doubt about it, my machine did not infringe on Mitchell's patent, but had I known what it was really going to cost me, both in time and money, I would have dropped the product like a hot potato.

It's a deficiency in our legal system that these kinds of shenanigans are allowed to take place.  It's not really the lawyers fault, they should use all the tools available, I blame the court. It shouldn't be  allowed to go on. When Mitchell's side started running up our legal expense I went to my attorney and told him to do the same thing.  He was actually pretty ticked at me for even thinking he would do something like that.  I do have to say, that young man, Michael Rounds, and the associate he had heading up the case, Kirstin Jahn, were two of the most honest, ethical, and moral people I've ever met in my life.  Something I respected and admired.  Mitchell's lawyers, I didn't admire so much.  The way Ed stomped out of the courtroom past my outstretched hand was telling as well.

Cheers,
Mike

[bcheeks]

That's interesting information re: the Maltby, for bending titanium metal woods.  How long have you been using it, for bending 460cc heads?

Most people I know with Mitchells, won't even make an attempt at bending drivers, very much consistent with what you are saying.  But I had not heard about the utility of the Maltby.  I think that's actually nice to hear.  You should be the most popular guy at GolfDiscussions.  PM me for my story as to how I got banned from GolfWRX on that subject; I'm not happy or proud of it, it just happened.

any story involving a banning from golfwrx should be public.  do tell