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Author Topic: Fitting Questions: Putter Weight / Green Speed/ Inserts/ Roll  (Read 239 times)
golfergeorge
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« on: January 31, 2010, 10:08:50 PM »

What is the correct relationship between putter weight and green speed when fitting an individual for a putter?
Would you recommend a heavy putter for fast greens?
Would you recommend a light putter for fast greens?
Would you recommend not changing weights for greens with varying speed?
Do putter face inserts affect rollout of a putt?
Are hotter inserts better for slow greens?
Are softer inserts better for quicker greens?
Is it possible to hook or slice a putt?
Should loft be adjusted when going from bent to Bermuda greens?
Will lie angle effect the aim of a 3 degree lofted putter?
What are the top 3 putter fitting considerations in order of priority
Thanks for all replies .............. George

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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 10:09:45 PM »

Wow, that's a helluva first post. Honorable mention?  clapping
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JTK37
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2010, 12:04:39 PM »

What is the correct relationship between putter weight and green speed when fitting an individual for a putter?
Would you recommend a heavy putter for fast greens?
Would you recommend a light putter for fast greens?
Would you recommend not changing weights for greens with varying speed?
Do putter face inserts affect rollout of a putt?
Are hotter inserts better for slow greens?
Are softer inserts better for quicker greens?
Is it possible to hook or slice a putt?
Should loft be adjusted when going from bent to Bermuda greens?
Will lie angle effect the aim of a 3 degree lofted putter?
What are the top 3 putter fitting considerations in order of priority
Thanks for all replies .............. George



Okay, I don't know if this is going to help you so take it with a grain of salt.

The three biggest factors in "fitting" a putter are Length, Lie and Loft.  Those three will affect the way a chosen putter performs in terms of consistency/contact, direction(within reason.  No lie on a putter will not affect direction to the same degree as it will on a higher lofted club) and roll/speed control. 

A player needs to chose a head design which they are comfortable with.  Alignment is a huge issue.  The majority of players, especially those of higher handicaps struggle with their alignment on the green.  You can read the break properly, get the speed right, but if you're not set-up on your intended line, or making compensations in your stroke to correct for it putts just won't fall.

Mallet vs. Blade is NOT a weight issue in most cases, but rather an alignment and confidence factor, mallets typically offering higher MOI and longer sight lines(perhaps making alignment easier).  However some players will find it easier to align a more "square" blade-style putter.

How the putter is shafted, Heel, double bend, offset etc can also affect a proper fit depending on stroke style--straight back straight through, open to closed;  hand position--forward pressing, behind even with the ball etc. 

Slow vs. Fast greens and Light vs. Heavy putters can be debated a bit.  As a rule of thumb I would find ONE putter you're comfortable with.  Changing the weight of the putter in your hands from round to round will change the feel and may affect the mechanics of your stroke and the way your hands move through the ball.  Speed control is a product of stroke and contact, NOT putter weight.  A putter is moving so slowly while striking a putt that "momentum" as some see it does not affect the speed or distance the putt rolls.  See the PGA tour.  The majority of top putters have used the same putter for years.  Sure they play on consistently faster greens than most of us do however the conditions vary from day to day and tournament to tournament.  They adapt through feel, not equipment.  A player will never be a consistent putter if things don't feel the same from day to day. 

In theory a marshmallow soft insert would allow the ball more time to dwell on the face and come off slower than a non-insert putter.  Again that would assume that a putt was being struck firmly enough to actually compress an insert.  Over the past 5 or so years as golf ball compressions fell and covers got softer inserts have gotten firmer.  For 99% of players firm vs. soft is a matter of audible feedback.  Only the smallest percentage of players can actually FEEL a difference between inserts.  Switching from a hard surlyn covered ball to a softer urethane covered ball has the same affect on the FEEL.  Try putting with ear plugs in(like really in to the point you can't hear anything).  Everything "Feels" the same, especially if you don't know what type of ball your putting or which insert is SUPPOSED to be softer. 

It sounds like you need to find a good FITTER.  Not a BS salesperson who will sell you anything.  A fitter who will be honest with you and your abilities.  Countless times people have come to me for a putter fitting looking for the holy grail.  If they're dead set on something that doesn't fit them or won't cure their ails I'm not going to STOP them from buying it.  But you can be sure they're going to know why its not a good fit and what I would recommend in its place.  In the end its up to them.  Too many players, again usually higher handicap levers aren't honest with themselves.  If they roll 10 putts from 15ft and cant get one to stop within 5ft of the hole(some long, some short, all long whatever it may be) theres a good chance that even a perfectly fit putter won't improve their putting stats.  At that point its time to recommend working with a teaching professional who can focus on the short game.  Feel may be innate but the ways of finding it can still be taught.

So, I hope that helps and doesn't cause any confusion.  If I didn't make any sense or you have any questions please feel free to ask.  Joe
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 01:30:41 PM »

Wow, that's a helluva first post. Honorable mention?  clapping

Considering that you both a relatively new members here -  yahoo -  Great question and reply.

rob
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golfergeorge
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2010, 09:32:01 AM »

Okay, I don't know if this is going to help you so take it with a grain of salt.

The three biggest factors in "fitting" a putter are Length, Lie and Loft.  Those three will affect the way a chosen putter performs in terms of consistency/contact, direction(within reason.  No lie on a putter will not affect direction to the same degree as it will on a higher lofted club) and roll/speed control. 

A player needs to chose a head design which they are comfortable with.  Alignment is a huge issue.  The majority of players, especially those of higher handicaps struggle with their alignment on the green.  You can read the break properly, get the speed right, but if you're not set-up on your intended line, or making compensations in your stroke to correct for it putts just won't fall.

Mallet vs. Blade is NOT a weight issue in most cases, but rather an alignment and confidence factor, mallets typically offering higher MOI and longer sight lines(perhaps making alignment easier).  However some players will find it easier to align a more "square" blade-style putter.

How the putter is shafted, Heel, double bend, offset etc can also affect a proper fit depending on stroke style--straight back straight through, open to closed;  hand position--forward pressing, behind even with the ball etc. 

Slow vs. Fast greens and Light vs. Heavy putters can be debated a bit.  As a rule of thumb I would find ONE putter you're comfortable with.  Changing the weight of the putter in your hands from round to round will change the feel and may affect the mechanics of your stroke and the way your hands move through the ball.  Speed control is a product of stroke and contact, NOT putter weight.  A putter is moving so slowly while striking a putt that "momentum" as some see it does not affect the speed or distance the putt rolls.  See the PGA tour.  The majority of top putters have used the same putter for years.  Sure they play on consistently faster greens than most of us do however the conditions vary from day to day and tournament to tournament.  They adapt through feel, not equipment.  A player will never be a consistent putter if things don't feel the same from day to day. 

In theory a marshmallow soft insert would allow the ball more time to dwell on the face and come off slower than a non-insert putter.  Again that would assume that a putt was being struck firmly enough to actually compress an insert.  Over the past 5 or so years as golf ball compressions fell and covers got softer inserts have gotten firmer.  For 99% of players firm vs. soft is a matter of audible feedback.  Only the smallest percentage of players can actually FEEL a difference between inserts.  Switching from a hard surlyn covered ball to a softer urethane covered ball has the same affect on the FEEL.  Try putting with ear plugs in(like really in to the point you can't hear anything).  Everything "Feels" the same, especially if you don't know what type of ball your putting or which insert is SUPPOSED to be softer. 

It sounds like you need to find a good FITTER.  Not a BS salesperson who will sell you anything.  A fitter who will be honest with you and your abilities.  Countless times people have come to me for a putter fitting looking for the holy grail.  If they're dead set on something that doesn't fit them or won't cure their ails I'm not going to STOP them from buying it.  But you can be sure they're going to know why its not a good fit and what I would recommend in its place.  In the end its up to them.  Too many players, again usually higher handicap levers aren't honest with themselves.  If they roll 10 putts from 15ft and cant get one to stop within 5ft of the hole(some long, some short, all long whatever it may be) theres a good chance that even a perfectly fit putter won't improve their putting stats.  At that point its time to recommend working with a teaching professional who can focus on the short game.  Feel may be innate but the ways of finding it can still be taught.

So, I hope that helps and doesn't cause any confusion.  If I didn't make any sense or you have any questions please feel free to ask.  Joe

Hello Joe:
     Thanks for your great reply to my post .  I appreciate your time and effort.  Your comments certainly reflect a wealth of knowledge on putting and putter fitting and I concur with your analysis.  I am in the Atlanta area. and have been in the club making business for a long time.  I am trying to become more knowledgeable concerning putters and putter fitting.  I believe it is an area of opportunity for clubmakers and golf instructors.  Everyone wants to score better.  Putting is an obvious area where this can be achieved.  There is a lot of conflicting information regarding proper putter fitting and the influence of equipment on motion.  At the recent PGA Show, I asked many industry "experts" some of the questions listed above.  The answers were across the board and many completely opposite from one another. 
     I am a partner in a new venture called  “The Putting Experience”.  My PGA partner and I are creating an indoor putting studio for stroke evaluation and putter fitting.  We are using the Break 30 program using a SAM putt lab and the Eclipse video training system.  We also have Tomi, V1 video,  and since we are at a green grass facility, access to a large practice putting area recently converted to Champion Bermuda.  We are taking detailed stats of players equipment including loft, lie, weight, and offset statically and then in both the players address position and impact positions.   In a very short time, it is easy to see a strong relationship between putting styles and player backgrounds.  We recently worked with the entire Oglethorpe University golf team.  They are defending NCAA Division III champions and come from all over the country.  The stoke analysis information allowed us to rank the players correctly and then identify on what type of greens they developed their putting stroke and style.
     It is a work in progress and I appreciate your insights.  Your comments make perfect sense and fit in with what we have been seeing for ourselves.  Contact me if you’re ever heading through our area ……………….. George
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