Who plays classic clubs?

[RobotDoctor]

I picked up a second MacGregor M43T driver.  This driver has been refinished but has the original shaft and insert.  The swingweight is D5 and there is no lead weight at the back of the clubhead.  This is one of the most solid MacGregors I have ever owned. 

I gamed this driver today (not the one pictured above).  My driving was very good while my putting, chipping and pitching was very bad.  I also gamed a Bridgestone e5 ball (higher spin rate modern ball).  Playing at 5000 feet elevation produces an additional 10% to 12% carry for tee shots.  My tee shots with the driver produced a 5 to 10 yard draw and was generally around 280 yards or so.  I had two drives where I hit the ball right on the screws (perfect contact) that produced drives over 300 yards.  One was 305 and the other was 315 (as noted by my range finder).  I played with a buddy who is gaming a Taylor Made 420 driver and he is a fairly long player.  The drive that was 315 was about 5 yards behind his drive and he hit that one really good.

That said, persimmon, when struck on the sweetspot, is about as long as modern graphite shafted drivers.  Definitely more roll is gained from the persimmon but the ball has to be struck perfectly.  If the drive is not struck that well (toe and heel shots) then the drives are generally 30 yards (or so) short of the modern drivers.  It looks like I will be continuing the play of the persimmon drivers as this will guarantee that my swing (at least with the driver and 3 wood) will be tighter than it is now.

Oh by the way, the feel of the persimmon wood striking a golf ball on the sweetspot is a feel everyone should feel.  Absolutely outstanding!!!

[RobotDoctor]

The following pictures are of my M43T (#1) that is being updated, so to speak, with an Aerotech Steelfiber ss75 graphite shaft.  The driver had a couple of hairline cracks in the neck and either the original shaft would have to be removed then reset and the neck epoxied to repair it.  I elected to have the driver rebored to .335 (from the .294 original bore) and have the graphite shaft installed.  The driver is in the final stages of repair/retrofit/refinish.  The following link contain additional pictures of the transformation.

RDs M43T retrofit pictorial

This is the driver that is shown in my avatar before the rework.  I can't wait to give this driver a spin!  

 

[bl8d]

picked up  a set of '86 J.Nicklaus Super-eye-O-matic 1-3-4 virtually mint. The driver has some scuff wear near the top.
The 4 wood is stellar and the 3 wood kicked the Titleist 980f 3wood out of the bag, which I didn't think was possible.
 

[Richard Nixon]

Been playing for the past two weeks with Wilson Sam Snead Blue Ridges. My regular driver, 3 wood, and 5 wood are in the shop. I definitely don't hit them quite as far, and when something goes wrong, it goes TERRIBLY wrong, but the rest of the time I'm having a hard time understanding the difference. When I catch one, the ball absolutely flies, and that's with the original flex shaft and old leather grip. Makes a man think.

[NikNak]

I play MP33's they may not be that old compared to the OP's but they're classic

[KBob]

Have been reading this discussion with great interest.  I used to work with MacGregor and loved many of the comments about MacGregor and Hogan Classic equipment.  For the gentleman who wrote about his Great Scot wedge, I have looked at my old catalogs and believe the Great Scot was a commercial golf club, not a pro line one.  It is probably more on the contemporary side and not that old, though I can't precisely date it.  MacGregor made both commercial and pro-line since the 1930s.  It's a great looking club with a really neat icon on the back.

Way back in MacGregor used to make commercial products that were significantly more expensive than pro-line equipment.  To give you an order of magnitude (and this is not precise) Chieftain woods in commercial line had mother-of-pearl crown inlays and ivorine faces and retailed for about $60. while normal clubs cost $6.  You can see some if you visit Sam Snead's Taverns that keep wonderful displays of historically significant clubs.   

For RobotDoctor, the logo you have on the crown of your outstanding persimmon club used to be referred to as a "Winged MT" logo; the MT represented MacGregor Tourney.  Outstanding club.

According to things I have read and heard from players that knew him, Toney Penna referred to VIP as "Very Important Player" which is the origin of the acronym. 

A bit about old model numbers.  The letters, T, K, H, and F in a model number of a wood or iron typically identified a grip of cord, cord and rubber or molded rubber.

During the many ownership changes MacGregor went through, many historically significant documents and records were lost.  While I worked there, the R&D director told me after one ownership change, original hand-stamps used in the custom shop were thrown in the trash
and disgarded.  One thing I believe that was most valuable that got away was a book with all players custom-made model information and specifications that went way back into the 1930s disappeared.  I am sure it recorded what products players like Armour, Penna, Hogan, Nelson and Demaret played when the company hired them.

Since I used to get many calls about the value of classic MacGregor equipment, I will tell you it is very difficult to value them and it has to do with shape they are in and activity in the market.  In the 1970s and early 1980s, the Japanese market craved classic MacGregor persimmon woods and forged irons and prices were booming.  You should know that MacGregor used to do special runs of equipment for specific tournaments that were highly valued due to the limited quantities and use of alternate materials.  I was shown a very nice IMG5 putter made in brass or bronze (can't remember) for a Frank Sinatra tournament that had an asking price of $10,000 (in near mint shape), since so few were made.

The best way to keep up on such matters is to become a member of a club collecting society and actively participate.  Because classic clubs are like commodities trading, values can rapidly change.  I never have joined one, because I value my classics for their designs, shapes, relevance in the industry and that wonderful feel of touching off shots correctly.

Right now, I am playing 1991 VIP forgings and a 1947 MacGregor Tommy Armour IMG putter, with contemporary metal woods and wedges.   

[Richard Nixon]

KBob,

Thanks for all of that excellent information. Please stick around and contribute.

[RobotDoctor]

Yes, thanks for the information KBob.  It is nice to have a former MacGregor insider here. 

I did know that the MT stamp on my M43T is called the "Winged MT" stamp.  I have a definite weak spot for the classic MacGregors of the early to mid 50s.  I believe that these woods from this era were the best ever made.  Of course there were some good contemporary persimmons, like Wood Brothers, but the MacGregors are the benchmark.

[drewspin]

Great post, KBob!

[Mr. Mulligan]

I bought a set of 1973-vintage Wilson Gene Sarazen Crest irons about three years ago.  I regripped them, but other than that they're the original clubs, 2 to 9 iron.  Initially, I bought them as a starter set, but after playing some cavity-back sets, I've gone back to the Wilsons.  My buddies think I'm nuts, but I just enjoy playing them more.  I'm finally starting to hit the ball well, and when you do, and you hear that sound, when the ball seems to effortlessly leave the club face and launch towards the target, there's nothing better.

I also recently got hold of a set of Slazenger/Ben Hogan Director irons, 3 to Equalizer, at a garage sale for $10.  This time I cleaned and sanded the original Hogan grips, and they're like new.  Can't wait to try them!  They're a lot thinner than my Wilson clubs, but about the same weight.

[KBob]

By the way, Robot, did you know the Wood brothers are related to Masters champion Craig Wood? 

[KBob]

Oh yeah, on persimmons, don't forget about the great work a guy named Joe Powell used to do in persimmon too.  He did some magnificent shaping of heads.  

I don't know about you all, but one of the reasons that I believe the golf equipment industry is in trouble today is that they have forgotten part of equation for guys like us is timeless shape and enduring beauty of class equipment.  Clubs today look worn out after a season, but many of your 40-50 classics clubs don't.  Due to quality of craftsmanship.  

Consider an old set of forged irons are individually sculptured of 8 or more heads into a set that belongs together is no easy job.  And in the past, we did not (usually) have to worry about tin medallions coming loose and falling off on the course somewhere.  

With the old persimmons, the great heads perfectly and uniformly shaped, oil hardened, painted or stained.  More contemporary persimmons used different whipping and inserts from the older ones.  Woods used to be whipped with linen whipping rather than the plastic coated string.  Certainly Cyclolac inserts were more durable but the old fiber inserts were beloved by the tour professionals.  And if you find an old persimmon wood with a leather grip, chances are it has a tar and paper underlisting that one of those great clubmakers had to get just right to assure the proper grip diameter and appropriate feel.  The touring pros could tell the difference when one was undersized or oversized, so getting it right was a source of pride for clubmakers.

The club polishers that did the irons for the classic brands were also artists.  They were taught the craft by an older, experienced generation, so the proper methods were maintained within companies.  And the MacGregor or Hogan or Wilson blade profile was maintained and looked right to our eyes as players.  That's the case at MacGregor, Hogan, Wilson, H&B, Spalding and many others.  If you talk to one of these guys they will gladly tell you the person's name who taught them the craft.

The best grinders were usually assigned to their companies' custom shops and started making sets for the touring professionals.  Funny thing is some of the great clubmakers used to quietly and respectfully listen to the input of some of the game's greats, multiple major championship winners in some cases, then they would do what they knew would the player wanted and would be happy with, rather than what the player actually said they wanted.  These artists used to be part technician and part counselor to the champions and would gladly stay in the background.  The new generation of clubmakers are advertised as the rock stars of the industry.  

Yep give me the classic clubs and clubmakers anytime.  They are what made the industry great!    

[robmk2]

Just came across this forum and I'm happy to be here. I posted previously on another site but did not get much of a response, maybe you guys are more knowledgable here.
I just lucked out and bought a set of "Collectors Edition" 1965 wilson dynapower blades and was wondering if anyone here had had any info on these clubs. I have contacted Wilson and the apparently can not look back more than 10 years. Go figure.
I really would like to know what year these were issued (I think it was in the 80's) and any ideas on value. The set is 2-pw with X shafts and leather grips. They have "Collectors edition" on the shaft band. They are an inch longer than the originals so it looks like they have more modern specifications.
They  have NEVER been hit and are close to mint. If they are worth a bunch they will look nice on the wall.......if not I will put them in my bag and give my fg-17s a rest.
Thanks in advance
Robmk2
Houston
Texas

[ralph vulpitta]

this is my 1st time here,and i love to read about other people playing older clubs with the passion i do.in the last 4 yrs i have played a set of "73" hogan apex, a  set of "65" dyna power blades,"80 ish hogan radial's, 68 haig ultra's,681 titleist's mb,and this year a 1976 or 80 wilson staff tour blade which i just hit at the dome and love em more than my 681's. i liked them all,but really like these staff t.blades.my latest driver is a late 60's? toney penna persimmon un real ! i never hit a longer ball !dont know about u guys but i love the "crack" of an oil hardend  persimmon.hit em long!

[ralph vulpitta]

sand bagger, i play 1965 dynapower by wilson, all i can say is i hit a nice draw w/ these and they are solid w/ good feel. if yours were never hit...i would save em. u could buy mine there on e-bay..9/10. just saying.....

[LowSpinningHook]

Currently, i have been practicing/playing with a old/new bag:

Cleveland Persimmon 10th Anniversary Driver
Taylormade (original) Burner 4 wood
Wilson FG-17 4,6,8 irons

My current wedges and putter

While it's not a set of ironmasters or a Wood Bros... It has been fun to crack the ball around the course with those beauties. And after a few weeks my usual irons and woods look huge.