Indoor vs. Outdoor

[Typhoon]

Here's what happens:  I have the blue swing speed radar and when I hit indoors into a net or simulator where I work the speeds are 99 - 103 mph.   When I take it outside, place it in the exact same spot I'm at 115 - 119 mph.   The latter speeds are more indicative of the distance's the ball travels ( I use a Bushnell yardage master to measure them).

I felt embarassed at a fitter's place a while back when the numbers on his  monitor came up in the 103 range and the distance was 260 yards at best and when I said, ( and I really didn't want to say it...) that I hit it further outside, I got one of those... ""sure you do" answers...  which I expexcted to get.

I think personally that it has something to do with hitting the ball a finite distance ( to the net ) and not at a target out on the horizon that makes you swing harder to reach it.

Anybody else have this happen?

[JLV]

I can only do outdoors, Im closterphobic and  cant swing inside

[mr_divots]

I can only do outdoors, Im closterphobic and  cant swing inside

Same here. My swing is worthless indoors.

[Typhoon]

That's funny, I don't feel clostrophobic and its doesn't feel like I'm hitting it any differently but I am.   In the simulator I get paranoid about hitting the sides on my backswing so there's something I guess.

[JTK37]

I've been in golf retail for 10yrs.  My expertise is as a fitter.  Working indoors is not ideal.  In fact it sucks.  Mainly because you can't see actual ball flight(or work on your tan).  Left-right, draw-fade etc.  That said, nothing about the swing changes.  Good launch monitors, Vector pro, Trackman, Flightscope and even Zeelocity Purelaunch are pretty absolute. Properly calibrated most players will be able to take the distances they see, at least the carry numbers straight to the course.  Roll will obviously vary by playing conditions.  

Simulators(sorry I previously retyped launch monitors.  See above paragraph for LM thoughts; absolute accuracy) on the other hand are no where near accurate.  They have no means of actually "reading" spin rates.  The computers plug the ballspeed and direction into an algorithm to produce approximated results.  In terms of distance average swing speeds are pretty close, slower speeds are punished and higher are rewarded with more than they would ever see outside.

You mention using a Bushnell Yardage Master.  I use a Pinseeker 1500 and Sky Caddie SG5 on the course, but I'm not familiar with the yardage master by bushnell(is that a GPS or laser unit?).  No matter how steady a players hands are, it is impossible to measure distances with a laser range finder(to a tee shot in the fairway) with any accuracy(flags and targets are easy to pinpoint, balls are not).  GPS is the only way to do it within any precision.  

[camster8]

I've been in golf retail for 10yrs.  My expertise is as a fitter.  Working indoors is not ideal.  In fact it sucks.  Mainly because you can't see actual ball flight(or work on your tan).  Left-right, draw-fade etc.  That said, nothing about the swing changes.  Good launch monitors, Vector pro, Trackman, Flightscope and even Zeelocity Purelaunch are pretty absolute. Properly calibrated most players will be able to take the distances they see, at least the carry numbers straight to the course.  Roll will obviously vary by playing conditions. 

Launch monitors on the other hand are no where near accurate.  They have no means of actually "reading" spin rates.  The computers plug the ballspeed and direction into an algorithm to produce approximated results.  In terms of distance average swing speeds are pretty close, slower speeds are punished and higher are rewarded with more than they would ever see outside.

You mention using a Bushnell Yardage Master.  I use a Pinseeker 1500 and Sky Caddie SG5 on the course, but I'm not familiar with the yardage master by bushnell(is that a GPS or laser unit?).  No matter how steady a players hands are, it is impossible to measure distances with a laser range finder with any accuracy.  GPS is the only way to do it within any precision. 

Those statements couldn't be further from the truth.  I fit indoors and out with a Flightscope Kudu which does measure back and side spin.  Indoor data is virtually flawless when looking at comparable data outdoors.  Indoors has its merits, relative to actual ball fitting which is a vital portion of a proper fitting session, at least mine anyway...

[JTK37]

Those statements couldn't be further from the truth.  I fit indoors and out with a Flightscope Kudu which does measure back and side spin.  Indoor data is virtually flawless when looking at comparable data outdoors.  Indoors has its merits, relative to actual ball fitting which is a vital portion of a proper fitting session, at least mine anyway...

Whoops.  My fault Camster8.  In the previous paragraph i referred to Launch Monitors as absolute.  The paragraph you quoted was about simulators.  My fault and thanks for pointing that out.  Edited to correct.  Joe

[camster8]

Whoops.  My fault Camster8.  In the previous paragraph i referred to Launch Monitors as absolute.  The paragraph you quoted was about simulators.  My fault and thanks for pointing that out.  Edited to correct.  Joe

No worries...  Welcome aboard and keep posting...

[dmk]

I've been in golf retail for 10yrs.  My expertise is as a fitter.  Working indoors is not ideal.  In fact it sucks.  Mainly because you can't see actual ball flight(or work on your tan).  Left-right, draw-fade etc.  That said, nothing about the swing changes.  Good launch monitors, Vector pro, Trackman, Flightscope and even Zeelocity Purelaunch are pretty absolute. Properly calibrated most players will be able to take the distances they see, at least the carry numbers straight to the course.  Roll will obviously vary by playing conditions.  

Simulators(sorry I previously retyped launch monitors.  See above paragraph for LM thoughts; absolute accuracy) on the other hand are no where near accurate.  They have no means of actually "reading" spin rates.  The computers plug the ballspeed and direction into an algorithm to produce approximated results.  In terms of distance average swing speeds are pretty close, slower speeds are punished and higher are rewarded with more than they would ever see outside.

You mention using a Bushnell Yardage Master.  I use a Pinseeker 1500 and Sky Caddie SG5 on the course, but I'm not familiar with the yardage master by bushnell(is that a GPS or laser unit?).  No matter how steady a players hands are, it is impossible to measure distances with a laser range finder with any accuracy.  GPS is the only way to do it within any precision.  

You may have that backward.  But if not you are incorrect.

[mr_divots]

I've been in golf retail for 10yrs.  My expertise is as a fitter.  Working indoors is not ideal.  In fact it sucks.  Mainly because you can't see actual ball flight(or work on your tan).  Left-right, draw-fade etc.  That said, nothing about the swing changes.  Good launch monitors, Vector pro, Trackman, Flightscope and even Zeelocity Purelaunch are pretty absolute. Properly calibrated most players will be able to take the distances they see, at least the carry numbers straight to the course.  Roll will obviously vary by playing conditions.  

Simulators(sorry I previously retyped launch monitors.  See above paragraph for LM thoughts; absolute accuracy) on the other hand are no where near accurate.  They have no means of actually "reading" spin rates.  The computers plug the ballspeed and direction into an algorithm to produce approximated results.  In terms of distance average swing speeds are pretty close, slower speeds are punished and higher are rewarded with more than they would ever see outside.

You mention using a Bushnell Yardage Master.  I use a Pinseeker 1500 and Sky Caddie SG5 on the course, but I'm not familiar with the yardage master by bushnell(is that a GPS or laser unit?).  No matter how steady a players hands are, it is impossible to measure distances with a laser range finder with any accuracy.  GPS is the only way to do it within any precision.  

Can't say I agree with that. Been using a 1500 for years without issue and have no problem hitting a flag from any yardage really. The pinseeker technology really hones in on the flag. Are you sure you have the pinseeker mode enabled?   

[JTK37]

Can't say I agree with that. Been using a 1500 for years without issue and have no problem hitting a flag from any yardage really. The pinseeker technology really hones in on the flag. Are you sure you have the pinseeker mode enabled?   

Agreed there are no problems hitting the flag, even from distances exceeding 300yds.  Trying to laser distances to a ball in a fairway in order to gauge distances off the tee is very difficult and inaccurate.

[JTK37]

You may have that backward.  But if not you are incorrect.

Mmmm....... yeah I really mess up that first post.

Not saying a bushnell is inaccurate when trying to gauge distances to a flag.  For that I find it to be dead on.  Trying to gauge distances on shots you have hit is very difficult

[JJ17]

Mmmm....... yeah I really mess up that first post.

You need to stop drinking then posting. Or...start drinking.

[Indacup]

The equipment we use indoors and outdoors are the same....but we have seen a trend of inaccuracy between the two on some customers due to either they feel "closed in" and feel they cannot use their "outdoor" swing...or more often than not, the seem to tense up and swing harder against that screen....which in turn diminishes swing speed and all  but negates the fitting session.

Odd thing though.....

We have tested many locals during winter time at one of our shops that is relatively enclosed and will see numbers not as good as what they do outdoors.....however, we also have specs on the same people at one of our booths at a large indoor trade show...where the walls are replaced with nets on both walls and ceiling with the same dimensions.....

And THERE, they produce almost the same swing speed numbers as outdoors.

[mr_divots]

The equipment we use indoors and outdoors are the same....but we have seen a trend of inaccuracy between the two on some customers due to either they feel "closed in" and feel they cannot use their "outdoor" swing...or more often than not, the seem to tense up and swing harder against that screen....which in turn diminishes swing speed and all  but negates the fitting session.

Odd thing though.....

We have tested many locals during winter time at one of our shops that is relatively enclosed and will see numbers not as good as what they do outdoors.....however, we also have specs on the same people at one of our booths at a large indoor trade show...where the walls are replaced with nets on both walls and ceiling with the same dimensions.....

And THERE, they produce almost the same swing speed numbers as outdoors.

Even in some simulators, I find the screen one hits into has enough of a ricochet to it that some balls will really come screaming back at you. The shorter the distance the ball travels before it hits a net, screen, whatever, the more tense I feel indoors. I also have a hard time aiming indoors for some reason. I'm always right of where I think I am. 

[Typhoon]

Agreed there are no problems hitting the flag, even from distances exceeding 300yds.  Trying to laser distances to a ball in a fairway in order to gauge distances off the tee is very difficult and inaccurate.

What I do is stand at my drive and laser it back to the guy on the tee teeing off.

[Indacup]

Even in some simulators, I find the screen one hits into has enough of a ricochet to it that some balls will really come screaming back at you. The shorter the distance the ball travels before it hits a net, screen, whatever, the more tense I feel indoors. I also have a hard time aiming indoors for some reason. I'm always right of where I think I am. 

Good point! Reminds me that with Screens, not only did they tend to bounce off hard, but they are very loud...this year we bought new screens that muffle the sounds and absorb impact better...plus they provided higher graphic detail.

[Typhoon]

ok... back to hitting outside rehabbing my broken finger.  Last week...

Outdoor grass range flat
15 mph headwind/crosswind
GPS from me to the huge flag on a little hill was 275.
I was carrying it probably 273 because it hit into the hill and stopped.
My blue swing speed radar had me at 115 mph most of the time.

I had taken my 115 CS and at a 1.50 smash factor I figured about 170 mph ball speed ( give or take ).  When I plugged these into Todd's "Optimal Spin Program" I came out with a carry of 283 which I think would be correct minus the wind I was experiencing.

You gotta hit outside...from now on the indoor stuff will be for fun only.   

[camster8]

ok... back to hitting outside rehabbing my broken finger.  Last week...

Outdoor grass range flat
15 mph headwind/crosswind
GPS from me to the huge flag on a little hill was 275.
I was carrying it probably 273 because it hit into the hill and stopped.
My blue swing speed radar had me at 115 mph most of the time.

I had taken my 115 CS and at a 1.50 smash factor I figured about 170 mph ball speed ( give or take ).  When I plugged these into Todd's "Optimal Spin Program" I came out with a carry of 283 which I think would be correct minus the wind I was experiencing.

You gotta hit outside...from now on the indoor stuff will be for fun only.   

So, you take a suspect reading from your $50.00 swing speed unit? You take a stab at ball speed based on what?  You make no mention of optimal Backspin Numbers nor provide an adequate way you measured launch angle???  Sorry John, go back to indoors...  Oh yeah, range balls???

[Dr.Green]

I have one of those portable swing speed radar units and although they are fun to mess around with, it certainly can't give me the feedback I get from a session with a professional clubmaker who is using professional equipment.

[Typhoon]

So, you take a suspect reading from your $50.00 swing speed unit? You take a stab at ball speed based on what?  You make no mention of optimal Backspin Numbers nor provide an adequate way you measured launch angle???  Sorry John, go back to indoors...  Oh yeah, range balls???

I took some from indoors, like smash factor of 1.40 - 1.50.  My launch angle seems pretty consistent indoors at 10 degrees which looks to be correct out or in based on ball flight.  Spin rate I used from a couple of more reliable indoor machines at 3000 rpm.  I know... alot of indoor info I'm using.  I didn't say it was bad... when I plug those numbers into Optimal flight I get a carry distance that aligns itself more with the GPS at the target when I hit outdoors than indoors.

"Good" range balls too...Not Richardsons

Hey, maybe just a fluke that the numbers come out that way but thats where its landing.   and yes Frank... you know I'll go back inside anyway!!

[HoosierGolfer]

I've been in golf retail for 10yrs.  My expertise is as a fitter.  Working indoors is not ideal.  In fact it sucks.  Mainly because you can't see actual ball flight(or work on your tan).  Left-right, draw-fade etc.  That said, nothing about the swing changes.  Good launch monitors, Vector pro, Trackman, Flightscope and even Zeelocity Purelaunch are pretty absolute. Properly calibrated most players will be able to take the distances they see, at least the carry numbers straight to the course.  Roll will obviously vary by playing conditions.  

Simulators(sorry I previously retyped launch monitors.  See above paragraph for LM thoughts; absolute accuracy) on the other hand are no where near accurate.  They have no means of actually "reading" spin rates.  The computers plug the ballspeed and direction into an algorithm to produce approximated results.  In terms of distance average swing speeds are pretty close, slower speeds are punished and higher are rewarded with more than they would ever see outside.

You mention using a Bushnell Yardage Master.  I use a Pinseeker 1500 and Sky Caddie SG5 on the course, but I'm not familiar with the yardage master by bushnell(is that a GPS or laser unit?).  No matter how steady a players hands are, it is impossible to measure distances with a laser range finder(to a tee shot in the fairway) with any accuracy(flags and targets are easy to pinpoint, balls are not).  GPS is the only way to do it within any precision.  

Nice to hear from someone that is doing fittings say outdoors is better.  I have always thought that way and would much rather see the ball flight versus the only feedback you get is from the sumulator.

[mungo park]

I know that if I am hitting the ball outdoors and can see the ball flight, I have a chance of "getting in the groove."  If I am on a simulator or hitting in a net, I may make the same bad swing time after time - because I can't react to the ball flight.

I also tend to make a better finish outside.  Don't know why, just do.

[Backspin9]

The equipment we use indoors and outdoors are the same....but we have seen a trend of inaccuracy between the two on some customers due to either they feel "closed in" and feel they cannot use their "outdoor" swing...or more often than not, the seem to tense up and swing harder against that screen....which in turn diminishes swing speed and all  but negates the fitting session.

Odd thing though.....

We have tested many locals during winter time at one of our shops that is relatively enclosed and will see numbers not as good as what they do outdoors.....however, we also have specs on the same people at one of our booths at a large indoor trade show...where the walls are replaced with nets on both walls and ceiling with the same dimensions.....

And THERE, they produce almost the same swing speed numbers as outdoors.

This confirms what I experienced yesterday.  I went to a (supposedly) good club fitter with an indoor Trackman to do some testing.  The numbers I was getting there were consistently lower that what I got the week before hitting outside into a net with the Bridgestone guys.  The place yesterday was very dark and hot, and while I didn't feel closed in, so to speak, I could not believe there was that much of a discrepancy.  FWIW, the numbers I got outside were much closer to what I've experienced on the course.  So who do you believe?

And much to my chagrin, what they recommended did not produce any better results that what I was already playing.  Besides not liking what they suggested, it was hard to justify the $715 they were going to charge for this driver for a very minimal distance gain -- maybe 4 yards tops.  So I basically left a little confused, but reasonably certain that what's in the bag is a pretty decent fit. 

[WORLDLONGDRIVESERIES]

from week to week i can go up or down by as much as 5mph swing speed - swing number is not fixed, it changes so if you go in one week and get a number with your old club then try a new one and get a different number it isnt telling you much unless you are using both old and new at both sessions.

Trackman will give you lower numbers than nearly any other device
SS radars are consistently generous, if you take a swing speed from the ss radar and go to trackman your ss is going to drop
Some Sims punish harder hitting rather than reward it.


k