How much effect...

[ASK3L]

I would argue most rational people would assume that a sedative is going to negatively impact athletic performance or any activity that requires coordination, timing, and a sharp mind, but that has already been questioned.   

I agree with you 100%
You do argue and your rationality is certainly in question!

[billybaroo]

You do argue and your rationality is certainly in question!

If rational is defined as needing a drink to cope with the stress of a game I'd rather be irrational.  How do you handle stress at work? 

[ASK3L]

 Stress at work? What is that?

[NewJerichoMan]

Google fat, drunk pitchers <5 year careers and you'll get nothing because nobody remembers all of them.  Doesn't mean they don't outnumber the Wells of the world.

Let's keep the merry-go-round going.  Google fat, drunk pitchers that pitched a perfect game.  Of the 17 pitched, at least one of them was by a pitcher half in the bag. 

Let me guess your retort: "google, fat, drunk pitchers that didn't pitch a perfect game". 

If your contention is that alcohol hurt performance don't you think it's hurt your case when drunk people are pitching perfect games?   

Ok, now you are overstating reality.  There are not legions of HoF'ers who played the game in a constant drunken stupor.  Further, none of the examples of guys who did actually proves it really helped them.  All it proves is it didn't hurt them enough to get them out of the league.  And a drink before a game isn't likely going to hurt anybody enough to get them out of the game, unless they were a fringe player to begin with.  Much like steroids don't turn a career minor leaguer into a HoF'er.

Flaccid argument alert!     Alcohol hurts performance but not enough to take them down a level??

How many players do you think are in the HOF?  You don't get there by being lucky.  You get there by unsurpassed performance over a looonnnggg period of time (with the exception of Sandy Koufax).  Using round numbers, there are roughly 250 players in the HOF.  Baseball's been around since oh the 1870's.  That roughly 2 players per year making the HOF since the inception of baseball.  2 freaking players per year! 

If alcohol is such a performance killer how come there are so many guys that were notorious booze hounds in the HOF?

I got Ruth, I got Cobb, I got Brett, I got Mantle, I got Whitey Ford, I got Josh Gibson, I got Boggs, I got Puckett, I got Eck, I got Jimmy Foxx, I got Mickey Cochrane, I got Drysdale, I got Feller and those are just the notorious booze hands that jump to mind. 

That's a helluva a baseball team right there!! 

I don't think I'm "overstating reality".  The link between baseball and alcohol is long lived and well documented by various media accounts, books, films, etc.  It was always there, even during the Prohibition.   

Later,
David

[billybaroo]

Interesting to see how Wells himself claims he was misquoted and in fact not drunk during his perfect game.  So was he a boasting juvenile that thinks it's cool to drink or a liar? 

How many sports agencies have come out and said alcohol is part of the training regimen of their elite athletes?  If it is the key to success surely there would be someone embracing this method.  What?  There isn't a single one?  I wonder why.



 

[lenman73]

If rational is defined as needing a drink to cope with the stress of a game I'd rather be irrational.  How do you handle stress at work? 

I might as well point out a difference between need and want and the difference between playing a round of golf with your friends and playing at the highest level.  So if I am out on a saturday afternoon at the muni with my buddies and have a beer before we tee off, I will go out on a limb and say that is a tad bit different than teeing it up in the last group on Sunday at Augusta.  When I said rational, I was referring to the difference between playing a game, I'll say it again, GAME, and being a cop, a pilot , or whatever.  I got some apples here, we can compare them to oranges all day, but they still aren't going to be the same.

[Raidermatt]

Obviously the discussion is about done, so just one clarification:

Flaccid argument alert!     Alcohol hurts performance but not enough to take them down a level??

I said "not hurt them enough to get them out of the league".  There's not just one level between HoF and out of the league.  Hell, there's not just one level among HoF'ers.  Barry Bonds was a HoF'er before steroids.  Steroids just helped him reach an even higher level.  Similarly, alcohol (or any detriment) can hurt performance without turning a HoF'er into a AAA player. 

I know you disagree with the conclusion, but obviously what I said wasn't even clear.

I must have been drunk.

[NewJerichoMan]

Interesting to see how Wells himself claims he was misquoted and in fact not drunk during his perfect game.  So was he a boasting juvenile that thinks it's cool to drink or a liar? 

It was his autobiography.  After he was castigated by the puritanical left he said wasn't "half drunk" but rather hungover.  

For the record, it was a day game and he says he was at a cast party for SNL and only got 1 hour of sleep.  Below is the quote:

"As of this writing, 15 men in the history of organized baseball have ever thrown a perfect game. Only one of those men did it half-drunk, with bloodshot eyes, monster breath and a raging, skull-rattling hangover. That would be me (David Wells)."

How many sports agencies have come out and said alcohol is part of the training regimen of their elite athletes?  If it is the key to success surely there would be someone embracing this method.  What?  There isn't a single one?  I wonder why.

Captain Buzzkill, no one said it was part of a training regimen.  It ain't a supplement.  It reduces stress.  

Also, if a professional athlete came out and said it was part of his daily routine, he/she would be annhilated in the public.  Even Mickey Mantle couldn't get away with saying, "to have seen three balls coming at him. He swung at the middle one and hit a home run."  Just because it isn't talked about doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I think a more germane question would be is if alcohol is such a performance killer, how come so many professional athletes are linked with alcohol despite the "poor performance" (as you put it) associated with it?  We've had one perfect game with alcohol involved, several illustrious drinking careers that overlapped with illustrious HOF careers, and if you haven't checked the police blotter lately, DUIs seem to be part of many professional athlete's routine.  

Later,
David

[billybaroo]

It was his autobiography.  After he was castigated by the puritanical left he said wasn't "half drunk" but rather hungover.  

So, is he lying now or was he lying then in order to sell more books?  Did he fabricate the whole story of being drunk at all to dramatize the moment?  Had he stuck to one story he'd be a lot more credible.   

I think a more germane question would be is if alcohol is such a performance killer, how come so many professional athletes are linked with alcohol despite the "poor performance" (as you put it) associated with it?  We've had one perfect game with alcohol involved, several illustrious drinking careers that overlapped with illustrious HOF careers, and if you haven't checked the police blotter lately, DUIs seem to be part of many professional athlete's routine.  

Later,
David

And there are 100x as many stories of non alcohol influenced athletes having very successful games and careers. 
1 perfect game vs 16
several HOF drinkers vs the vast majority


If alcohol is such a wonderful way to enhance performance why don't any professional sports teams say they use it to ensure peak performance?  Face it, alcohol is not a performance enhancer!!  I am still waiting for some proof that it linked to increased performance.  Multiple anecdotes with no linkage are a dubious way, at best, to support a claim as outlandish as this.  You have yet to show any causality between alcohol and increased performance. 
 
I guess in your world getting drunk and being arrested means you are cool and worthy of praise.

[bogeycentral]

Does Sam W. have another user name as "billybuffoon" ?
 

[NewJerichoMan]

So, is he lying now or was he lying then in order to sell more books?  Did he fabricate the whole story of being drunk at all to dramatize the moment?  Had he stuck to one story he'd be a lot more credible.   

He's David Wells.  He'll never have credibility....except when it comes to drinking.  He's was hungover at best and half-drunk at worst. 

And there are 100x as many stories of non alcohol influenced athletes having very successful games and careers. 
1 perfect game vs 16
several HOF drinkers vs the vast majority

At least 1, and it's not 1 versus 16.  It's one.  If alcohol was such a performance killer, there wouldn't be one perfect game thrown by an alky. 

Same goes for the HOF.  You get to the HOF by superior performance over a long period of time (except Koufax).  Again, "enthusiastists of the brew" have made it into the HOF, which would seem to counter the idea that alcohol is a performance killer.  By virtue of making the HOF means your performance was better than 99.5+% of the population of MLB, and being in MLB itself means your athletic performance is better than 99.5+% of the everyone else!! 

I am still waiting for some proof that it linked to increased performance.  Multiple anecdotes with no linkage are a dubious way, at best, to support a claim as outlandish as this.  You have yet to show any causality between alcohol and increased performance. 

I showed you the positive link between drinking and sexual performance.   

There ain't no study but you can't deny the real world.  Superior athletic performance can be achieved with "proper alcoholic lubrication".  There are some positive side effects of alcohol and those will sometimes outweigh the negative side effects for some people.  The only thing that makes that an outlandish statement is the puritanical PC times we live in.

Perhaps you would care to post a link or offer an anecdote explaining how a Ty Cobb or a Babe Ruth or a Mickey Mantle or a George Brett managed superior athletic performances over long periods of time despite not being bashful with the beer. 

I guess in your world getting drunk and being arrested means you are cool and worthy of praise.

Way to dive face first down the slippery slope.  Drinking alcohol doesn't make one cool or super athletic and it also doesn't make them evil or falling down drunk.

Later,
David 

[billybaroo]

He's David Wells.  He'll never have credibility....except when it comes to drinking.  He's was hungover at best and half-drunk at worst. 


At least 1, and it's not 1 versus 16.  It's one.  If alcohol was such a performance killer, there wouldn't be one perfect game thrown by an alky. 

So, if his credibility is nil you now have zero perfect games thrown by a boozer as we can no longer be certain what he said had any validity.  It is just as likely he said he had a raging hangover to boost his reputation as a party animal.  And if alcohol was such a booster all 17 would have been thrown by those with hangovers.     

Same goes for the HOF.  You get to the HOF by superior performance over a long period of time (except Koufax).  Again, "enthusiastists of the brew" have made it into the HOF, which would seem to counter the idea that alcohol is a performance killer. 

So, natural talent at a sport isn't a factor?  It is likely these players would have had even more outstanding careers had they not been on the bottle as frequently as you suggest.  Ted Williams was supposed to have phenomenal eye sight that aided in his ability to see the ball (and subsequently knock it into Kenmore Square).  Give him a few drinks and he can still hit the ball far better than me, but not as well as when he is clean.

There ain't no study but you can't deny the real world.  Superior athletic performance can be achieved with "proper alcoholic lubrication".  There are some positive side effects of alcohol and those will sometimes outweigh the negative side effects for some people. 

Again, until you can find something that proves alcohol is *the* cause of the increased performance you are creating a linkage that simply isn't supported with any facts or data.  To prove something is true you need to show data that supports it, that is what a solid statistical analysis does, without a proof point you are just spouting BS.

[ASK3L]

Again, until you can find something that proves alcohol is *the* cause of the increased performance you are creating a linkage that simply isn't supported with any facts or data.  To prove something is true you need to show data that supports it, that is what a solid statistical analysis does, without a proof point you are just spouting BS.

'scuse me, You continue to call for proof and cant see the difference between a small amount and a skinfull. Yet you offer no evidence for your argument other than shooting everyone down and stating BS yourself. Have a brew and chill.   I'm out of this now, say what you want but I've heard enough of your stories. There are none so blind as the saying goes 

[slymer58]

I know I play better after a drink. Not 2 or 3 but 1. I think it relaxes me.

[lenman73]

Ahh, but now comes the hard part.  You have to scientifically prove it.  You need to get 250 people at least to have a good size pool to show statistical significance,  graph the bell curve, show the median and then repeat this 3 times.  Then it might be possible to believe that for some people, not all, but seem people it might actually help.  Some people are more nervous, or say anxious than others and a little sedative to calm the nervse is the ticket, for others it might not work, completely an individual thing.  I like you can relax with a beer before I tee off, so after all this rambling, I agree with you completely.  No where in this post did I mention getting wasted or imply getting wasted or indorse getting wasted.

[SVonhof]

I started this thread, but I am now out. Too much bickering back and forth. Sorry guys, didn't mean to start this!

[markg]

I read something in a golf magazine last year, I think it was Golf Digest, that said 1 to 2 alcoholic drinks before a round of golf helps average golfers play better.  Personally, it doesn't seem to impact my game noticably one way or the other unless I've had quite a few.

[NewJerichoMan]

So, if his credibility is nil you now have zero perfect games thrown by a boozer as we can no longer be certain what he said had any validity.  It is just as likely he said he had a raging hangover to boost his reputation as a party animal.  And if alcohol was such a booster all 17 would have been thrown by those with hangovers.     

You can spin however you like to fit your little theory.  Bottom line, in his autobiography, he stated he was half-drunk with a brain-rattling hangover or some such.  It was only after the media and the Yankees jumped on him that he backpedaled to being merely "hungover".  He's the John Daly of baseball.  Most probably don't question when he says he was drunk because chances are....

So, natural talent at a sport isn't a factor?  It is likely these players would have had even more outstanding careers had they not been on the bottle as frequently as you suggest.

All MLB players are great talents by virtue of being in the big leagues.  To suggest certain members of the HOF underachieved is silly.  And, it ain't me suggesting these guys were Sultan of the Swill.  The drinking excesses of Cobb, Ruth, Mantle are well documented, as well as the institutionizing of alcohol and baseball.  It was an integral part of the culture until everyone started getting all sensitive.   

Again, until you can find something that proves alcohol is *the* cause of the increased performance you are creating a linkage that simply isn't supported with any facts or data.  To prove something is true you need to show data that supports it, that is what a solid statistical analysis does, without a proof point you are just spouting BS.

Were you wearing a lab coat when you typed that?  There is no denying the association.  Guys drinking and guys playing at a HOF caliber.  Like many things in life, it ain't a 100%, and it's not going to work for anyone.  Plus, you can't go overboard with it. 

Plus, I broke down and did a Google.  First thing I clicked was McGill Athletics (I'm an extensive researcher).  The overtone is negative (no way it was going to be positive given the innate evilness of alcohol) but nonetheless states some of the physically positive things that happen when alcohol is imbibed.  It did NOT mention the % chance of having unprotected sex going up though. 

"Low amounts of alcohol (0.02-0.05g/dL) can result in decreased hand tremors, improved balance and throwing accuracy, and a clearer release in archery, but in slower reaction time and decreased eye-hand coordination."

Think decreased hand tremors could be good for putting?  Think improved throwing accuracy might aid oh say a pitcher? 

"Alcohol can have a deleterious effect on grip strength, jump height, 200- and 400-meter run performance, and can result in faster fatigue during high-intensity exercise. Conversely alcohol has been shown to lack an effect on strength in various muscle groups, on muscular endurance, and on 100-meter run time."

The above statement struck me as odd but "Lack of effect on 100-meter time" stood out.  Looks like first to third is no problem then. 

On the flip side, given my experiences and those that talk about it, I still drinking is probably most positive to the mind and it's relaxing effect and how that translates to the rest of the body. 

Later,
David 
 

[billybaroo]

'scuse me, You continue to call for proof and cant see the difference between a small amount and a skinfull. Yet you offer no evidence for your argument other than shooting everyone down and stating BS yourself. Have a brew and chill.   I'm out of this now, say what you want but I've heard enough of your stories. There are none so blind as the saying goes 

http://espn.go.com/special/s/drugsandsports/alcohol.html

http://www.middlebury.edu/campuslife/services/healthed/drugs/alcathletes.htm

The detrimental effects of alcohol on performance are extremely well documented and include impairment of the following:

    * Balance and steadiness

    * Reaction time

    * Fine and complex motor skills

    * Information processing

    * Boisterousness, unsteadiness, slurred speech

    * Nausea, vomiting, marked unsteadiness, drowsiness

Current research indicates that the impact of even moderate alcohol use on athletic performance is much more significant than was originally known. Even moderate use (2-3 drinks) results in:

    * A loss of motor coordination for up to 12 to 18 hours after drinking Depleted aerobic capacity and negative impact on endurance for up to 48 hours after the last drink has been consumed

Other effects of alcohol use which last for hours after the blood alcohol concentration has returned to zero include:

    * Impaired reaction time Impaired balance and eye-hand coordination Impaired fine motor and gross motor coordination Decrease in strength Increased fatigue - fatigue coming on more quickly Difficulty in the body regulating its temperature resulting in an increased risk of heat prostration Dehydration

[lenman73]

The end of the first paragraph in your article said from ESPN "In general, its effects are proportional to its concentration in the blood"  They also called moderate use 2-3 drinks.  If you get nausea or vomit from one drink before you tee off, chances are you shouldn't drink reguardless of what you are doing.  And later on it says its effects very among individuals.

[billybaroo]

"Low amounts of alcohol (0.02-0.05g/dL) can result in decreased hand tremors, improved balance and throwing accuracy, and a clearer release in archery, but in slower reaction time and decreased eye-hand coordination."

Think decreased hand tremors could be good for putting?  Think improved throwing accuracy might aid oh say a pitcher? 


 

Perhaps, but in order to get to the putting green you need to hit 1-3 well struck shots that require hand-eye coordination unless you mean mini golf.   

How about that slow roller to the third base side of the mound where a quick reaction, ability to field the ball, decide which base to throw to, then make an accurate and hard throw are all potentially needed? 



 

[bogeycentral]

Lets get this back on track. Narcissism and comparing the size of your dick never go hand in hand (no pun intended)...

Do you find that different alcohols affect your game differently? I know I can't drink wine as I find the taste wretched, but beer amps me up a little more while hard alcohol relaxes me. Strange, but anyone else have this effect on the golf course?

[NewJerichoMan]

Perhaps, but in order to get to the putting green you need to hit 1-3 well struck shots that require hand-eye coordination unless you mean mini golf.   

Perhaps you could tell the class what % of strokes in any given round are on the putting green, both in mini-golf and regular golf.     For extra credit, perhaps you could expand on that and theorize of the cascading confidence effect of how holing putts can effect one's overall game. 

How about that slow roller to the third base side of the mound where a quick reaction, ability to field the ball, decide which base to throw to, then make an accurate and hard throw are all potentially needed? 

Steroids have been known to slow reaction time as well.   Think they hurt performance, too?  Besides, defense doesn't win championships in baseball.  It's all about pitching, pitching, pitching. 

Later,
David

[billybaroo]

Perhaps you could tell the class what % of strokes in any given round are on the putting green, both in mini-golf and regular golf.      

I wasn't aware it was a fixed percentage. 
Moreover, the worse your hand-eye coordination is the harder it is to get to the green where your cool putting stroke will help you 1 putt for a snowman.   

[NewJerichoMan]

I wasn't aware it was a fixed percentage. 
Moreover, the worse your hand-eye coordination is the harder it is to get to the green where your cool putting stroke will help you 1 putt for a snowman.   

Let me help you out then.  If one shoots a par 72 by the book, that's 18 gir and 36 putts, or 50% of one's strokes.  Generally, it's considered at least 40% of one's strokes as long as one keeps it under 120.  Throw in the touch shots around the greens, and it's well over 50% of one's strokes on average. 

Plus, McGill Athletes stated that along with decreased hand tremors that alcohol also "improved balance and throwing accuracy, and a clearer release in archery."  I don't know about improved balance but the throwing accuracy rings a bell with me.  Throwing is not about being precise.  You don't aim, you just throw.  Golf can be the same way in that you can't control multiple aspects of the game, you just have to intuitively feel it and let it happen.  That's relates to the mental aspect of alcohol in my book.

I'm not recommending Joe Six Pack go out and load with a couple cases before each round.  If someone is nervous about golf or likes social drinking, I don't think a couple beers is going to be doom and gloom.  I think in a few scenarios (probably not the majority) it's going to help some golfers play a better game.  Sure, some guys who think alcohol makes them play better are fooling themselves but not all of them. 

Later,
David