Reference CPM Chart - Feel Free to Add or ask questions

[Captain Joesterio]

Does anyone have a GENERAL CPM chart.  Knowing that one shaft does not CPM the same as another in the same flex, that does not concern me.  What i am trying to get established is a general number range to look out for.  We all know that one shaft will be an X versus another X that plays totally different. 

I think this would be a good topic to get started if some of you more experienced clubmakers can chime in and we can make a table similar to what hungsolo did with the ball chart. 

[rcain1us]

Tim at MyOstrich has one:

http://www.myostrichgolf.com/resources/flexchart.xls

[accufitgolf]

Are you looking for blank charts to fill out for record keeping or charts that show CPM information?

[BigLeftyinAZ]

Are you looking for blank charts to fill out for record keeping or charts that show CPM information?

Charts that show cpm

[accufitgolf]

I tried attaching one in MS WORD (.doc) format and it said .doc files not allowed. It listed type files allowed but I am not sure how to proceed.

I am now going to cut and paste the .doc file. Not sure what will happen. HERE GOES:

PCS Equalized Driver Frequency/Flex (Gripped)
Mitchell DigiFlex 5inch Clamp

CPM/FLEX   2.5L   3.0   3.5/A   4.0   4.5/R   5.0   5.5/S   6.0   6.5X   7.0   7.5/XX
LENGTH                                 

42                247   252   257   262   267   272   277   282   287   292   297
42.5              242   247   252   257   262   267   272   277   282   287   292
43                238   243   248   253   258   263   268   273   278   283   288
43.5              234   239   244   249   254   259   264   269   274   279   284
44                230   235   240   245   250   255   260   265   270   275   280
44.5              225   230   235   240   245   250   255   260   265   270   275
45                221   226   231   236   241   246   251   256   261   266   271
45.5              217   222   227   232   237   242   247   252   257   262   267
46                213   218   223   228   233   238   243   248   253   258   263
46.5              208   213   218   223   228   233   238   243   248   253   258
47                204   209   214   219   224   229   234   239   244   249   254
47.5              200   205   210   215   220   225   230   235   240   245   250
48                196   201   206   211   216   221   226   231   236   241   246

PCS Equalized 5 Iron Frequency/Flex (Gripped)
Mitchell DigiFlex 5inch Clamp

CPM/FLEX   2.5L   3.0   3.5/A   4.0   4.5/R   5.0   5.5/S   6.0   6.5X   7.0   7.5/XX
LENGTH                                 
34                315   320   325   330   335   340   345   350   355   360   365
34.5              310   315   320   325   330   335   340   345   350   355   360
35                306   311   316   321   326   331   336   341   346   351   356
35.5              302   307   312   317   322   327   332   337   342   347   352
36                298   303   308   313   318   323   328   333   338   343   348
36.5              294   299   304   309   314   319   324   329   334   339   344
37                289   294   299   304   309   314   319   324   329   334   339
37.5              284   289   294   299   304   309   314   319   324   329   334
38                280   285   290   295   300   305   310   315   320   325   330
38.5              276   281   286   291   296   301   306   311   316   321   326
39                272   277   282   287   292   297   302   307   312   317   322
39.5              267   272   277   282   287   292   297   302   307   312   317
40                263   268   273   278   283   288   293   298   303   308   313

Well it did not come across MS WORD formatted. Should be easy to figure out though. I will be glad to send it to anyone as a .doc attachment if they Email me at accufitgolf@aol.com

EDIT: Fixed it for you the best i could get

[thewitt]

There is NO SUCH THING as a GENERAL CPM Chart.

Should I say that again?

Even the PCS Chart is simply an IMPOSED ARTIFICIAL STANDARD over butt frequency values that may or may not represent a specific flex.

The reason the Royal Precision Rifle Chart works is it's for a SPECIFIC SHAFT DESIGN - the Rifle...  It fails horribly on Royal Precision graphite shafts...

Here are some numbers from the book "The Modern Guide to Golf Clubmaking" that might help you understand the problem behind having a CPM REFERENCE CHART.

This is the butt CPM range for a selection of Graphite Driver Shafts

L 220-254
A 219-257
R 216-277
S 235-295
X 261-308

You tell me.  What flex is a shaft with a butt frequency of 250 CPM ?

-t

[Captain Joesterio]

There is NO SUCH THING as a GENERAL CPM Chart.

Should I say that again?

Even the PCS Chart is simply an IMPOSED ARTIFICIAL STANDARD over butt frequency values that may or may not represent a specific flex.

The reason the Royal Precision Rifle Chart works is it's for a SPECIFIC SHAFT DESIGN - the Rifle...  It fails horribly on Royal Precision graphite shafts...

Here are some numbers from the book "The Modern Guide to Golf Clubmaking" that might help you understand the problem behind having a CPM REFERENCE CHART.

This is the butt CPM range for a selection of Graphite Driver Shafts

L 220-254
A 219-257
R 216-277
S 235-295
X 261-308

You tell me.  What flex is a shaft with a butt frequency of 250 CPM ?

-t

Tim

I understand that, which is why i specifically said

general number range to look out for

  I am NOT by any means trying to say this is all set in stone because i dont have the experience and that is exactly why i am asking; again, for a "general" range.

I thought it would be a good help for everyone to use that may not have been doing this over 20 years like you, Neil, Ken and anyone else that might have been doing this for any length of time. 

Thanks for your help

to answer your question, supposedly an L flex according to the chart, but doesnt it all depend on length?  250 CPM at 48 is a lot different than at 40

[thewitt]

A butt frequency chart would depend on the SHAFT model in question even more than the length.

You simply CANNOT take a chart of butt frequencies and apply it to shafts across models.

It WILL NOT BE accurate.

There is no "general" chart that works.

There are no "general guidelines" that will get you close.

It's completely dependent on the model of shaft.

Putting ANYTHING else out there is completely misleading.

It's like asking how tall you are based on your shoe size.  Though there are some people where it will fit, there are others where it will be completely off and not remotely interesting.

Butt CPM is exactly the same thing.

Read my range of flexes again.

That shaft is EITHER an L, A, R or an S according to the chart! 

-t

[accufitgolf]

Tim is correct in that there is no standard and only one measurement is not truly representative of the "total" shaft but we all had to start somewhere above and beyond reading a shaft label. This it itself is a valuable lesson if you want to go above being a club jockey.

One must crawl before they can walk, then walk before they can run.

Some say the more "data" (plural of data is datum but few use it or is it the opposite....LOL) we can collect on a golf club the better off we will be. Some say just because you can measure something, it does not always mean anything. Some you of that know me better, know I am one that "ranks" on the anal measurers that swear by 1/10th of a swingweight point measurerment.

Although I am an advocate of shaft profiling (measuring a shaft at various points along it length) it in itself is not proven to me yet:

1. I have played with shafts from different vendors that profiled near identical but they did not "behave" at all similar when in the same head played by the same golfer, me. Is this a "valid" testing methodology? No. Does it raise questions in my mind? yes.

2. There are "several" profiling standards running around out there.

3. Some are collecting profile data from "various" sources so I question the "quality" of "some" data".

Sometimes one can gather "information" and plot it out over a period of time, no matter how esoteric the data and or the time line, and reach a "conclusion".

Like most senators fart harder on Tusedays mornings that are the 11th of the month and within 6 hours they pass an economic stimulas package. So if you want to know when the next economic stimulas package will pass, mark your calenders for Tuesdays the 11th and get your fart sniffing dogs ready.

Professors that must publish or perish and anal thinkers either swear by or spend all there time debunking these type of things......LOL

Some do not understand that plus or minus one swingweight, a typical OEM spec, can mean a difference of 2 swingweights for the highest (say D3) to the lowest (say D1) and they are in spec. Imagine the trouble some will have with to much data no matter how presented.

Enough rambling. I need another drink and at my age, some sleep as I have a 8:00AM or so tee time tomorrow.

[thewitt]

Unfortunately John, the "5.5 is a stiff" standard has ruined more clubs than any other anal data recording or use.

I've seen dozens if not hundreds of clubs in here where a clubmaker has seen a chart somewhere that said he "needed" to trim the driver shaft to get a specific butt frequency because he "needs" that frequency for his swing speed - and in the process the clubmaker completely ruined the shaft.

This is not a case of walking before you run, it's a case of poor data making poor clubmakers out of otherwise smart people.

-t

[BigLeftyinAZ]

I used to use this one,but have been told its not correct for 5 inch clamps.

Does it really matter which chart you use?As long as you are consistent and fit people to where you feel they belong,it wouldnt matter as to which chart you use?

I think my old chart is about 15 cpms off (softer) compared to others. 
 The point of club fitting is to build on  reference points regardless of chart? Cant that be done even if chart is not correct? I understand my 6.0 might be different then someone else's 6.0,but that does that really matter?

[thewitt]

The Rifle chart is a slope for Rifle shafts.

Other shafts have different "design slopes" and do not fit the Rifle Slope.

Royal Precision also uses a 2 1/2" nominal clamp length, which for a Rifle shaft means a 5" clamp will be roughly 17 cpm stiffer than this chart.

-t

[BigLeftyinAZ]

The Rifle chart is a slope for Rifle shafts.

Other shafts have different "design slopes" and do not fit the Rifle Slope.

Royal Precision also uses a 2 1/2" nominal clamp length, which for a Rifle shaft means a 5" clamp will be roughly 17 cpm stiffer than this chart.

-t

Correct. A Dg used on that chart would come out softer,no?Maybe im wording this wrong

[thewitt]

The Royal Precision chart is for Rifle shafts - not Dynamic Gold shafts.

The Rifle is built to a specific butt frequency. The Dynamic Gold is not frequency sorted, it's weight sorted.

The RP chart uses a 2 1/2" nominal clamp length.

If you measure a Rifle shaft with a frequency meter with a 5" clamp, your readings will be 17 cpm HIGHER than the chart - assuming you measure everything else to the RP standard as well...

Charts like this are interesting when applied to the correct shaft with the correct measurement environment.

They are more than worthless when applied to the wrong shaft using the wrong measurement environment and do more damage than good.

If you want to know what the natural slope is for a specific shaft, trim a 3 iron shaft to length using the manufacturers tip trimming guidelines.  Measure the butt frequency with a 3i head installed.  Now trim that same shat for a PW and measure the frequency with a PW head installed.  Plot this slope. This is the designed frequency slope for that shaft model - or very close to it.

Forcing another shaft to fit another design slope will simply result in a "custom" slope for that shaft and not what the designer intended.

If you want to actually fit a PLAYER to HIS slope, you will need to fit the longest and shortest iron in the bag TO THE PLAYER for the desired feel and ball flight. You might need several different 3i and PW shafts in the same model with different amounts of tip trimming. Once you have settled on the 3i (or 5i or whatever) and PW tip trimming for the player, plot this slope and build the rest of the set to fit this line.

We have a frequency spreadsheet you can use for this by plugging in your own numbers for whatever shaft model and/or player you are working with.

Just trying to apply the Rifle slope (or the PCS slope for that matter) to any shaft design is NOT the way to utilize CPM in your club building.

-t

[Captain Joesterio]

Hey Tim,

what would happen if you took a 5 inch clamp and just used half of it out of curiosity? 

thanks for the information.

[BigLeftyinAZ]

I believe the cpms would come out softer.Havent tried that

[Captain Joesterio]

I believe the cpms would come out softer.Havent tried that

right, thats what i was wondering.  Can you see if they come out very similar to the rifle slope on your chart?  Not the DG's, a rifle that you have lying around.

[thewitt]

Hey Tim,

what would happen if you took a 5 inch clamp and just used half of it out of curiosity? 

thanks for the information.

Assuming the clamp will securely hold the shaft, you would simulate the Rifle clamping length.

The amount of shaft actually clamped is not what we care about, it's the beam length - the amount of shaft that sticks out in front of the clamp.

Unfortunately most 5" clamps cannot securely hold a shaft in the front half so it's very difficult to duplicate the RP clamps that way.

-t

[Dr.Green]

Bump for some interesting information

[BigLeftyinAZ]

Bump for some interesting information

  I'm sorry doc,But this topic is a sticky and always at the top.So, you bumped nothing. 

[Ken Smith]

I'm new to this forum, but this is a topic that is near and dear to my heart.  After reading through this particular thread, I would definitely have to agree with Tim.  First of all, there is no industry standard for shaft frequency or stiffness.  One shaft manufacturer's stiff flex is another's regular flex.  All in all, that really doesn't matter.  Once you've been properly fit, and have determined your appropriate frequency slope, you can disregard the manufacturer's flex designations.  Additionally, the notion of using a 205 gram tip weight to hit each shaft's plot on your frequency slope is a waste of time.  You should always use the head associated with what ever club you're fitting.  If you're trying to hit a specific frequency for your 5-iron, then use the 5-iron head.  When I do this, I also use a split grip on a five inch clamp.  I don't know about you, but I've never seen a golfer play a club without a grip.  I know I'm probably in the minority on this one, but it seems like common sense to me. 

Most shaft manufacturers engineer their shafts to be tip-trimmed in 1/2" increments.  By doing this, they basically achieve the Brunswick Slope, which is a natural progression of 4.5 to 5 cpm between clubs.  However, through hundred of fittings, I have found that most golfers require a slop of 2 to 2.5 cpm between clubs.  Just my two cents, for what it's worth...

[chrisfx811]

Most shaft manufacturers engineer their shafts to be tip-trimmed in 1/2" increments.  By doing this, they basically achieve the Brunswick Slope, which is a natural progression of 4.5 to 5 cpm between clubs.  However, through hundred of fittings, I have found that most golfers require a slop of 2 to 2.5 cpm between clubs.  Just my two cents, for what it's worth...

In order to achieve this, how do you change the tip trimming, and typically what iron do you use to 'start' with?

What has been your experience with slopes with smaller increments that 2 - 2.5 cpms?

[kiwi]

Ok this may sound like a rather stupid question. But for non club builder's what is a CPM. Obviusly it has something to do with flex. I'm pretty sure it stands for "cycles per minute", I may be wrong. But what does it actually mean/define.

[BigLeftyinAZ]

Ok this may sound like a rather stupid question. But for non club builder's what is a CPM. Obviusly it has something to do with flex. I'm pretty sure it stands for "cycles per minute", I may be wrong. But what does it actually mean/define.

Correct. 

[RipnIt2]

Ok this may sound like a rather stupid question. But for non club builder's what is a CPM. Obviusly it has something to do with flex. I'm pretty sure it stands for "cycles per minute", I may be wrong. But what does it actually mean/define.

In order to compare flexes between manufacturers, the shaft's frequency needs to be measured. Frequency is the number of cycles per minute (CPM) or vibrations that the shaft has when the tip end is tweaked while the butt end of the shaft is firmly held at 5.25" from the butt end. A machine called a frequency analyzer is used to measure the shaft's CPM rating. The higher the CPM measurement, the stiffer the shaft is.