Re: SBST Technique -- What is It? How Many Different Forms Exist?

[MentorSports]

A Note from the Editor:

As I requested, (do not ignore the guys with superpowers!!  ), SBST technique should be part of another thread.

I have now split off the topic of "What technique do you use in putting?" into this topic so SBST guys can argue and discuss what is SBST??

Thanks!

JG

Off Topic Comment -- maybe we need to discuss the sbst method in another thread -- I've always thought it centered around a manipulation of the hands in order to maintain the SBST - if you hands are quiet during the stroke, you've got an arc, slight or not.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

Not true. The shape of the swing (as viewed from above--and that's really what we're talking about here) is dictated by the motion of your shoulder frame. If you can keep your shoulder frame moving within a vertical plane, the head of the putter will also move within a vertical plane as well and appear to move back and forth along a straight line (when viewed from above).

This article by Geoff Mangum tries to explain this concept.

The only problem is that the range of motion of your shoulder frame is limited when rocking back and forth along the vertical plane, and at some point if you try to take the clubhead back any farther, your shoulder frame starts rotating AROUND your spine which causes the head to move inward (when viewed from above).

[Hungsolo]

Off Topic Comment -- maybe we need to discuss the sbst method in another thread -- I've always thought it centered around a manipulation of the hands in order to maintain the SBST - if you hands are quiet during the stroke, you've got an arc, slight or not.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

Not true. The shape of the swing (as viewed from above--and that's really what we're talking about here) is dictated by the motion of your shoulder frame. If you can keep your shoulder frame moving within a vertical plane, the head of the putter will also move within a vertical plane as well and appear to move back and forth along a straight line (when viewed from above).

This article by Geoff Mangum tries to explain this concept.

The only problem is that the range of motion of your shoulder frame is limited when rocking back and forth along the vertical plane, and at some point if you try to take the clubhead back any farther, your shoulder frame starts rotating AROUND your spine which causes the head to move inward (when viewed from above).

In order not to have an arc (while looking from above) you either have to manipulate the wrists, or have your spine parallel to the ground (I think that's what you meant by rotation on a vertical plane), or make the stroke entirely while sliding your weight to the back foot and then the front foot.  The wristy way is the most common SBST.  The sliding way should not even be discussed.  The "vertical plane" method is not truly SBST, because your spine is not truly parallel to the ground, and your shoulders must then be rotating slightly obliquely, producing a gated stroke.  It may look SBST, but it cannot be.  It is an arc, even if it does have a very large radius and looks to be straight.

[MentorSports]

Off Topic Comment -- maybe we need to discuss the sbst method in another thread -- I've always thought it centered around a manipulation of the hands in order to maintain the SBST - if you hands are quiet during the stroke, you've got an arc, slight or not.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

Not true. The shape of the swing (as viewed from above--and that's really what we're talking about here) is dictated by the motion of your shoulder frame. If you can keep your shoulder frame moving within a vertical plane, the head of the putter will also move within a vertical plane as well and appear to move back and forth along a straight line (when viewed from above).

This article by Geoff Mangum tries to explain this concept.

The only problem is that the range of motion of your shoulder frame is limited when rocking back and forth along the vertical plane, and at some point if you try to take the clubhead back any farther, your shoulder frame starts rotating AROUND your spine which causes the head to move inward (when viewed from above).

In order not to have an arc (while looking from above) you either have to manipulate the wrists, or have your spine parallel to the ground (I think that's what you meant by rotation on a vertical plane), or make the stroke entirely while sliding your weight to the back foot and then the front foot.  The wristy way is the most common SBST.  The sliding way should not even be discussed.  The "vertical plane" method is not truly SBST, because your spine is not truly parallel to the ground, and your shoulders must then be rotating slightly obliquely, producing a gated stroke.  It may look SBST, but it cannot be.  It is an arc, even if it does have a very large radius and looks to be straight.

Your shoulder frame has many degrees of freedom. Rotating around the spine isn't the only manner in which it can move. Your spine doesn't have to be parallel to the ground for the shoulder frame to move in a vertical plane. Again, the range of motion in which the shoulder frame can move this way is limited, but within a certain range, it is possible.

[Desmond]

Thanks for participating, Chin.

Maybe you can explain various SBST techniques or keep the guys on their toes.

I'm not a big Geoff Magnum fan but he has many disciples.

[Hungsolo]

The shoulders are very mobile.  They are the most mobile joints in the body by far.  (I have a bit of experience with them).

But in order for the shoulders to move only in a vertical plane, keeping the hands still and thus the face of the putter square, they must rotate only around the axis of the Cervicothoracic junction.  If you rely on sliding of the scapulothoracic articulation, or protraction/retraction, the arm must rotate, and therefore the wrists must rotate to fight this natural motion.  If you think of the body as a triangle, with the arms roughly isoceles, and the width between the shoulders as the base, the only way to pendulum and keep those arms the same relative length is to rotate around the center of the base.  Any sliding motion changes the angles at the base of that triangle, and changes the relative lengths of the arms.  This leads to rotation of the putter face.  The wrists have to move.

Do this.  Putt with your hands against a table/desk.  In order to keep the face square throughout the stroke, your wrists have to rotate, or you have to slide your hips, or you have to stand on a stool and bend over so you are bent nearly 90* at the waist.  You can make a very short stroke and fool yourself that it's SBST, but it isn't.  It's just a short enough arc that you think it's straight.  That is an error of perception.

[MentorSports]

The shoulders are very mobile.  They are the most mobile joints in the body by far.  (I have a bit of experience with them).

But in order for the shoulders to move only in a vertical plane, keeping the hands still and thus the face of the putter square, they must rotate only around the axis of the Cervicothoracic junction.  If you rely on sliding of the scapulothoracic articulation, or protraction/retraction, the arm must rotate, and therefore the wrists must rotate to fight this natural motion.  If you think of the body as a triangle, with the arms roughly isoceles, and the width between the shoulders as the base, the only way to pendulum and keep those arms the same relative length is to rotate around the center of the base.  Any sliding motion changes the angles at the base of that triangle, and changes the relative lengths of the arms.  This leads to rotation of the putter face.  The wrists have to move.

I'm not sure what much of this means, but when I rock my shoulders in a vertical plane, the rotation seems to be about a joint between the clavicle(s) and sternum.

[EXMAX]

no one can do it , not even Geoff
no one is symmetrical either , so using an arc or plane trainer will actually make your movements worse when you remove the crutch

[not a hacker]

I am a SBST and I can say that with a left hand low grip it feels like the most natural thing in the world for me.  I rock my shoulders and don't manipulate my hands at all and keep my left wrist locked, and still get it going straight back and straight through (at least that's how it looks and feels to me).  I think by dropping the left hand low it allows your spine to be perpendicular (not parallel as someone mistakenly said as that would be some trick ) which makes it easy for the sholders to rock back and through naturally in a straight line.  I do concur that if you used a regular grip it would be impossible to have a SBST stroke without manipulating the hands and wrists.